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Specialty Chemistry Forums => Citizen Chemist => Topic started by: Not a Kemist on April 19, 2017, 01:45:17 PM

Title: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Not a Kemist on April 19, 2017, 01:45:17 PM
I want to do this experiment.
I watched multiple YouTube videos and and found a few websites but still have a couple questions.

What I have is a gallon of 35% H2O2, 100g of sodium iodide, and a 2L flask. And of course the dish washing liquid... and food coloring for effect.
I'm finding conflicting or just random information on ratios.

For the size flask I have would 32oz. of hydrogen peroxide be ok?
How much dish soap should I add to that?
My biggest question is on the sodium iodide. I think every video I've watched whether it was sodium iodide or potassium iodide it was a liquid. Mine is a powder... does this matter? If not, would I add it as a powder or mix it with something to make it a liquid... and how much?

Any advantage of the potassium over the sodium?
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Not a Kemist on April 19, 2017, 01:51:48 PM
This seems to be one of the better videos on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei5kGOW1wT8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei5kGOW1wT8)

It appears he probably has less H2O2 than I mentioned and the dish soap just seems to be a random amount.
But he did specify that he is using sodium iodide but it was clearly a liquid unlike my powder...

This video is using potassium iodide (also liquid) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5qvi20J5IM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5qvi20J5IM)
Actually in this video at least at the end his amount of potassium iodide seemed random... he just poured until the reaction started....
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: billnotgatez on April 19, 2017, 03:24:35 PM
For all those members that want to participate in this thread please do not do a brain dump.
Instead let us assist the original poster with learning.

@Not a Kemist
What safety precautions are you going to take?

For your question
Quote
Mine is a powder... does this matter? If not, would I add it as a powder or mix it with something to make it a liquid... and how much?
Look at the following WIKI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_iodide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_iodide)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_iodide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_iodide)
Can you dissolve them in water and what amount would make the most concentrated solution of each.
You can assume about 20C (68F) to 25C (77F) room temperature.

To your point
Quote
I'm finding conflicting or just random information on ratios.

Many reactions happen no mater the ratio
Just not at there optimum.
More is not always better.
Also there is in chemistry the concept of limiting reagent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limiting_reagent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limiting_reagent)

Post back and we will work through more of your question.








Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: billnotgatez on April 19, 2017, 03:36:23 PM
By the way out of curiosity
What brand dish soap are you using.
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Not a Kemist on April 19, 2017, 03:40:37 PM
Thank you for the reply.


@Not a Kemist
What safety precautions are you going to take?

Well, I'm under the assumption this is a relatively safe experiment so I figured safety glasses and rubber gloves would suffice.
As well as plenty of open space... was planning on doing this indoors (I have about 20' of ceiling height where I am doing it). If you think that is insufficient then I could just as well move it outside.
It is my understanding that the reaction is hot and can be a skin irritant but can be easily cleaned up with water.


For your question
Quote
Mine is a powder... does this matter? If not, would I add it as a powder or mix it with something to make it a liquid... and how much?
Look at the following WIKI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_iodide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_iodide)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_iodide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_iodide)
Can you dissolve them in water and what amount would make the most concentrated solution of each.
You can assume about 20C (68F) to 25C (77F) room temperature.

To your point
Quote
I'm finding conflicting or just random information on ratios.

Many reactions happen no mater the ratio
Just not at there optimum.
More is not always better.
Also there is in chemistry the concept of limiting reagent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limiting_reagent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limiting_reagent)

Post back and we will work through more of your question.

I appreciate the links... I just skimmed them all as I am about to head out for a few hours.
I will give them a more thorough reading when I return.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Not a Kemist on April 19, 2017, 03:41:33 PM
By the way out of curiosity
What brand dish soap are you using.

I generally buy 'Dawn'... does this matter?
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: billnotgatez on April 19, 2017, 03:54:51 PM
By the way out of curiosity
What brand dish soap are you using.

I generally buy 'Dawn'... does this matter?


probably will still work

I just wanted to post the ingredients for possible later discussion.

These are some of if not all the ingredients that  are in
Dawn Dishwashing Liquid, Original Scent

Chemical
Fragrance(s)/perfume(s)
Ethanol/SD Alcohol 40
2-Phenoxyethanol
Cyclohex-1,2-ylenediamine
Methylisothiazolinone
Acid Blue 9
Sodium chloride
Water
Magnesium chloride anhydrous
PPG-26 Oleate
Pei-14 PEG-10/PPG-7 Copolymer
(C10-C16) Alcohol ethoxylate, sulfated, sodium salt
Sulfuric acid, mono-C10-16-alkyl esters, sodium salts
C10-16-Alkyldimethylamines oxides
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: billnotgatez on April 19, 2017, 04:36:54 PM
...
Well, I'm under the assumption this is a relatively safe experiment so I figured safety glasses and rubber gloves would suffice.
As well as plenty of open space... was planning on doing this indoors (I have about 20' of ceiling height where I am doing it). If you think that is insufficient then I could just as well move it outside.
It is my understanding that the reaction is hot and can be a skin irritant but can be easily cleaned up with water.
...

I like your safety thoughts.
It appears to be safe for the inside, but outside might be better.
At least for the first time.
I saw 1 video where the stuff hit the ceiling an that would make for a messy cleanup.

The Hydrogen peroxide does have a bleaching action so a lab coat may protect your clothing.
I was wondering if the reaction being exothermic (producing heat) would be too hot for plastic,
but I see some web sites using plastic bottles.
In any case, I would have the container on a level surface and not holding it in your hand.
When you do the experiment keep in mind heat is created.

This is supposed to be relatively safe experiment,
but when they do it with kids they use different reagents which are safer.

I would say that you would not want to use the whole gallon of hydrogen peroxide.
Start small and build up is usually a safe plan.

I will be away until tomorrow.
That should give you enough time to think about those dissolve solution question I asked.
Also you might read more pages on the internet
GOOGLE  elephant toothpaste
When I do an experiment - I do reading research first.
I do not necessarily try to read everything.
But, youtube watching should not be the only source.
I see you said you read some sites but you might look up the kids version of this experiment.

A caveat
I have not done this experiment myself ----- yet
but you got me thinking I should have

By the way
https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/en/concentration-solution/3-13/milligram%2Fliter-gram%2F100mL/ (https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/en/concentration-solution/3-13/milligram%2Fliter-gram%2F100mL/)
EDIT: the below link is better see my later apology post
mg/mL to g/100 mL
http://www.endmemo.com/sconvert/mg_mlg_dl.php

Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Not a Kemist on April 19, 2017, 08:46:41 PM
Thanks again for the help.

Don't worry, I'm in no hurry to do this... I bought the ingredients a month ago!
I prefer to do it properly and safely. One of the reasons I joined this forum today. I have plenty of other hobbies to keep me busy till then.

I may do it outside but while solving possible issues of being inside if I go out I'll either have to make sure its a calm day...or be careful of the weather... I'd prefer to not get a face full of this stuff if I'm down wind of the flask.
And as you mentioned it won't be in my hand... its a glass flask that will be on a sturdy table.

The day ran later than I anticipated... I'll put a little more research into this tomorrow... maybe try to be ready for on Sunday.
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: billnotgatez on April 21, 2017, 01:57:11 PM
I thought I would add that when the videos talked about the reaction they mentioned the word catalyst
when describing Why they added the various iodide compounds.
And I was pondering that and what we would call the other items mentioned in the videos/
Catalyst
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalysis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalysis)
Reagent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagent)

Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Not a Kemist on April 21, 2017, 09:06:12 PM
Thank you sir. I will check those out. I also installed a couple apps on my phone for a little learning help... time is gonna be tight for the next couple months as I have a major remodeling project going on at the house.
I'll dig into this a little more tomorrow as I may want to try this over the weekend if I get the time.
However even after reading through the links you posted yesterday I'm still not sure how much of the sodium iodide I should mix with what amount of water.
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: billnotgatez on April 22, 2017, 03:18:47 PM
...
 I'm still not sure how much of the sodium iodide I should mix with what amount of water.



This is the information on the links I posted that is of interest

Sodium iodide
Solubility in water
158.7 g/100 mL (0 °C)
184.2 g/100 mL (25 °C)
227.8 g/100 mL (50 °C)
294 g/100 mL (70 °C)
302 g/100 mL (100 °C)

Potassium iodide
Solubility in water   
1280 mg/mL (0 °C (32 °F))
1400 mg/mL (20 °C (68 °F))
1760 mg/mL (60 °C (140 °F))
2060 mg/mL (100 °C (212 °F))

I also said
You can assume about 20C (68F) to 25C (77F) room temperature.

in a later post I gave a hint
By the way
https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/en/concentration-solution/3-13/milligram%2Fliter-gram%2F100mL/
EDIT: the below link is better see my next post
mg/mL to g/100 mL
http://www.endmemo.com/sconvert/mg_mlg_dl.php

Do you want to have a go at trying to calculate what a concentrated solution of each would be?



Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: billnotgatez on April 22, 2017, 03:28:44 PM
I have to apologize
the converter I previously posted was for
mg/L to g/100 mL
this one is for
mg/mL to g/100 mL
http://www.endmemo.com/sconvert/mg_mlg_dl.php (http://www.endmemo.com/sconvert/mg_mlg_dl.php)
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Borek on April 22, 2017, 04:21:17 PM
Check pdfs linked to in the wikipedia article.

30% and 35% are perfectly equivalent here.
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Not a Kemist on April 23, 2017, 09:16:37 PM
...
 I'm still not sure how much of the sodium iodide I should mix with what amount of water.



This is the information on the links I posted that is of interest

Sodium iodide
Solubility in water
158.7 g/100 mL (0 °C)
184.2 g/100 mL (25 °C)
227.8 g/100 mL (50 °C)
294 g/100 mL (70 °C)
302 g/100 mL (100 °C)

Potassium iodide
Solubility in water   
1280 mg/mL (0 °C (32 °F))
1400 mg/mL (20 °C (68 °F))
1760 mg/mL (60 °C (140 °F))
2060 mg/mL (100 °C (212 °F))

I also said
You can assume about 20C (68F) to 25C (77F) room temperature.

in a later post I gave a hint
By the way
https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/en/concentration-solution/3-13/milligram%2Fliter-gram%2F100mL/
EDIT: the below link is better see my next post
mg/mL to g/100 mL
http://www.endmemo.com/sconvert/mg_mlg_dl.php

Do you want to have a go at trying to calculate what a concentrated solution of each would be?

Well, I'm not sure I'm reading this right.

So from the table at 77 degrees F.. 184.2 g/100 mL (25 °C)
Is this saying I can mix 184 grams of sodium iodide with 100 milliliters of water?
That seems like a hell of of a lot of sodium iodide and a small amount of water.

Or is this just the maximum I can dissolve in the water but may actually need much less?

I guess I'm assuming I'm measuring the sodium by weight and the water by volume...
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Borek on April 24, 2017, 03:33:47 AM
Is this saying I can mix 184 grams of sodium iodide with 100 milliliters of water?

Yes.

Quote
Or is this just the maximum I can dissolve in the water but may actually need much less?

Yes (but in no way it disagrees with your above statement).

Quote
I guess I'm assuming I'm measuring the sodium by weight and the water by volume...

Yes.

Have you checked the wikipedia references suggested?
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Not a Kemist on April 24, 2017, 07:48:00 AM
Is this saying I can mix 184 grams of sodium iodide with 100 milliliters of water?

Yes.

Quote
Or is this just the maximum I can dissolve in the water but may actually need much less?

Yes (but in no way it disagrees with your above statement).

Quote
I guess I'm assuming I'm measuring the sodium by weight and the water by volume...

Yes.

Have you checked the wikipedia references suggested?

Thank you.
Ok, so at this point then I'm thinking that unless someone has experimented with quite a few different ratios of sodium iodide to hydrogen peroxide solution then I will have to experiment myself with it and see when kind of reactions I get... although I have the means to measure by weight I'm thinking simply trying something like 1/2 teaspoon of sodium and about 4 oz. of water may be a good start... with 16oz. of hydrogen peroxide.

I forgot to mention this last night but as for the PDF links I'm not sure what you're referring to. Links in the sodium iodide page?
Every other word on that page is a link so....

Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Borek on April 24, 2017, 07:51:45 AM
There is a wikipedia page on the elephant toothpaste experiment.
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Not a Kemist on April 24, 2017, 08:00:07 AM
There is a wikipedia page on the elephant toothpaste experiment.

Oh, ok. Never actually went to that page I don't think.
It's saying 8g of Kl with 50mL of H2O2 so I can use that as a guideline.

I was also checking out this PDF from Flinn Scientific....
https://www.flinnsci.com/globalassets/flinn-scientific/all-free-pdfs/dc91098.pdf?v=d60a9418fb0e401ebfba9c93d27c5d9f (https://www.flinnsci.com/globalassets/flinn-scientific/all-free-pdfs/dc91098.pdf?v=d60a9418fb0e401ebfba9c93d27c5d9f)
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: billnotgatez on April 24, 2017, 12:14:24 PM
https://www.flinnsci.com/globalassets/flinn-scientific/all-free-pdfs/dc91098.pdf?v=d60a9418fb0e401ebfba9c93d27c5d9f (https://www.flinnsci.com/globalassets/flinn-scientific/all-free-pdfs/dc91098.pdf?v=d60a9418fb0e401ebfba9c93d27c5d9f)

The link you posted had these safety tips
Quote
Safety Precautions
Hydrogen peroxide, 30% will act as an oxidizing agent with practically any substance. This substance is severely corrosive to the skin, eyes, and respiratory tract; a very strong oxidant; and a dangerous fire and explosion risk. Do not heat this substance. Sodium iodide is slightly toxic by ingestion. Although the dish washing liquid is considered non-hazardous, do not ingest the material. Do not stand over the reaction; steam and oxygen are produced quickly. Wear appropriate chemical splash goggles, chemical-resistant gloves and a chemical-resistant apron. This activity requires the use of hazardous components and/or has the potential for hazardous reactions. Please review current Material Safety Data Sheets for additional safety, handling, and disposal information.
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: billnotgatez on April 24, 2017, 12:35:40 PM
I did not see a mention of
8g of Kl

in the WIKI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant%27s_toothpaste (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant%27s_toothpaste)
or the link you posted
https://www.flinnsci.com/globalassets/flinn-scientific/all-free-pdfs/dc91098.pdf?v=d60a9418fb0e401ebfba9c93d27c5d9f (https://www.flinnsci.com/globalassets/flinn-scientific/all-free-pdfs/dc91098.pdf?v=d60a9418fb0e401ebfba9c93d27c5d9f)

I did see in your link
Sodium iodide solution, 2 M, 5 mL


By the way
Do you know how much sodium iodide you have
with 2 M solution that 5 mL (from the link you posted)
or
1/2 teaspoon of sodium iodide and about 4 oz. of water  (your guess in a previous post)

This not to say that 8 grams or your 1/2 teaspoon will not work
Just asking if you want to do the computations



Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Not a Kemist on April 24, 2017, 12:52:56 PM
I did not see a mention of
8g of Kl

in the WIKI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant%27s_toothpaste (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant%27s_toothpaste)

I did see in your link
Sodium iodide solution, 2 M, 5 mL

It was in the first reference link in the wiki page above... to this PDF
https://chem.utah.edu/_documents/pdf/undergrad_program/elephants%20toothpaste.pdf (https://chem.utah.edu/_documents/pdf/undergrad_program/elephants%20toothpaste.pdf)


By the way
Do you know how much sodium iodide you have
with 2 M solution that 5 mL (from the link you posted)
or
1/2 teaspoon of sodium iodide and about 4 oz. of water  (your guess in a previous post)

This not to say that 8 grams or your 1/2 teaspoon will not work
Just asking if you want to do the computations

I have 100g of sodium iodide and 1 gallon of the hydrogen peroxide.

As for the safety precautions from the Flinn PDF....They do make it sound a little more harsh than the others.
After viewing the YouTube videos... #1 The Imagination Station (outside) and #2 The Jimmy Kimmel show (inside)... these were performed by people who were clearly scientists. They seemed content with a lab coat, glasses, and the IS guy wore gloves but the one on Kimmel did not... and even though you could clearly see the vapor coming from the end result they didn't seem concerned (although I'm sure standing there above taking deep breaths would be a mistake)!

So, I'll probably wear gloves and glasses like I mentioned earlier and throw on a jacket.... I can either do it outside or inside with the garage door open.... I can even have a 4' commercial fan blowing out if I want.
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: billnotgatez on April 24, 2017, 01:22:48 PM
I want to just discuss a question you had in the original post

...
 Mine is a powder... does this matter? If not, would I add it as a powder or mix it with something to make it a liquid... and how much?
...

The reaction would probably work with the powder
but maybe not at the optimum.

I posted the ingredients in a Dawn dish soap earlier in the thread.
I think you will find that the first ingredient is water (search the internet further) but how much is in the company's recipe'.
It still should be a major constituent
So even though you might only use 5 mL of dish soap, it has lots of water in it.
The hydrogen peroxide is about 70% water and 30% hydrogen peroxide.
So if you had 30 mL of Hydrogen peroxide, it would contain about 20 mL of water.

After seeing that the sodium iodide dissolve pretty readily in water at  room temperature,
it is likely that it would disperse throughout the mixture fairly quickly.
But if the sodium iodide was in solution already, it would disperse faster.
Of course we do not want the sodium iodide to be too dilute in solution.
That is why I suggested something close to a concentrated solution of sodium iodide.
The faster the sodium iodide disperses the more likely it would come in contact with the hydrogen peroxide quicker.
In a lab setting I have found using liquids are easier to pour into a container.



Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: billnotgatez on April 24, 2017, 01:33:10 PM
After reading the link
https://chem.utah.edu/_documents/pdf/undergrad_program/elephants%20toothpaste.pdf
They suggest having a fire extinguisher handy as a safety item.

From that link
Quote
when you drop a match into the flask the O2 bubbles will catch on fire.
Actually the Oxygen does not burn, but the high concentration of Oxygen will cause the rest of the stuff that makes up the bubble to burn more rapidly.
Since you have a high concentration of Oxygen being produced it is probably a good idea to have a fire extinguisher handy even if you do not have a burning match.



Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Not a Kemist on April 24, 2017, 02:02:57 PM
After reading the link
https://chem.utah.edu/_documents/pdf/undergrad_program/elephants%20toothpaste.pdf
They suggest having a fire extinguisher handy as a safety item.

From that link
Quote
when you drop a match into the flask the O2 bubbles will catch on fire.
Actually the Oxygen does not burn, but the high concentration of Oxygen will cause the rest of the stuff that makes up the bubble to burn more rapidly.
Since you have a high concentration of Oxygen being produced it is probably a good idea to have a fire extinguisher handy even if you do not have a burning match.

Roger that. Just ordered a multi-purpose one on Amazon. Class A,B,C
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: billnotgatez on April 24, 2017, 02:08:29 PM
I thought I would chat about part of your post
...
 although I have the means to measure by weight I'm thinking simply trying something like 1/2 teaspoon of sodium and about 4 oz. of water may be a good start... with 16oz. of hydrogen peroxide.
...

It is likely that any reasonable amount of any of the items used in making the elephant toothpaste will work, but not necessarily at the optimum.

Using volume rather than weight introduces some inaccuracy. Using non metric units adds additional complexity to determining how much of the catalyst you actually have.

1 Teaspoon = 0.166667 US fluid ounce
6 teaspoons in one ounce
1 Teaspoon = 4.92892 Milliliter
1 US fluid ounce = 29.5735 Milliliter

We would not be sure how tightly packed the 1/2 teaspoon and therefore using the density to determine the weight would be suspect.

Sodium iodide Density 3.67 g/cm3
1 cm3 ≡ 1 ml

Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Borek on April 24, 2017, 02:57:35 PM
It's saying 8g of Kl with 50mL of H2O2 so I can use that as a guideline.

Yes, sounds like a good starting point.

My bet is that using KI solution (opposed to a solid) can make the reaction faster and a better effect, just keep the amount of KI in the same ballpark.

This is in general a reasonably safe experiment - the only thing that should be handled with care being the hydrogen peroxide - but even that is not THAT nasty, just keep it out of contact with your body. It can also decolorize clothes on contact, so if you are going to do the in an expensive three pieces suit you better use an apron ;)
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Not a Kemist on April 25, 2017, 03:15:49 PM
Have to love Amazon... fire extinguisher already arrived!!

Don't worry, Borek.... I only wear suits to weddings and funerals... although some would argue that's the same thing  ;D
By the way  your current post total has the numbers 1-2-3-4-5 (23451) in it... quick math test... when will that happen again? You have 10 seconds.

I'm gonna do this by the weekend... I'll link a video.
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Borek on April 25, 2017, 04:29:54 PM
Easy one, @23514.
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Not a Kemist on April 25, 2017, 06:26:48 PM
Yeah, it wasn't hard... buy may make me go waste money on the lottery.

On another note... every time I get a reply on this thread I get two emails... any idea why the double notification?
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Borek on April 25, 2017, 06:41:24 PM
any idea why the double notification?

Nope, first time someone reports it.
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: billnotgatez on April 30, 2017, 03:21:09 PM
@Not a Kemist
Just wondering if you got to do the experiment.
Title: Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
Post by: Not a Kemist on April 30, 2017, 08:41:40 PM
@Not a Kemist
Just wondering if you got to do the experiment.
I had every intention of... but I spent about 20 hours between yesterday and today gutting my kitchen for remodel.
Hopefully this week. I'll definitely keep you posted and post a video.