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Specialty Chemistry Forums => Citizen Chemist => Topic started by: Kawilk01 on August 31, 2017, 11:38:02 AM

Title: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: Kawilk01 on August 31, 2017, 11:38:02 AM
Hey guys this is my first post here so hang in here. Im also not a chemist or scientist by any means so crazy words will confuse me, I'm  looking for as basic of an answer and maybe helpful links as you guys can give me.

Anyways, I've recently developed my own formula for a compound which when evaporated leaves a nice sticky residue behind for traction purposes. Basically I take Rock Pine Rosin and break it down into powder to be dissolved in denatured alcohol. Lay it out and when the alcohol evaporates you have a nice sticky substance for things to bite onto. Now it's great for a little bit, but as it airs out it looses most of its stick. I've been cruising around everything I can dig up online and it seems that my problem is that it's oxidizing with the air and humidity causing it to degrade.

The reason I made this post is to ask if anyone knows of a pretty readily available substance that I can add to the mix to help with the oxidation and promote the Rosin stay tacky to the touch for longer. If it could be more resistant to water in the process that would be great as well!

Thanks so much for any help guys
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: Vidya on August 31, 2017, 04:24:49 PM
You heard about ..Oxygen scavenger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_scavenger
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: wildfyr on August 31, 2017, 05:36:19 PM
Ascorbic acid would fit the bill nicely as an antioxidant. BHT (butylated hydroxy toluene) is another common, safe, one. Are you sure its not just being untacky because all the alcohol evaporates?

Vidya, your wikipedia link isnt even very useful. We should try to be more helpful here.
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: Kawilk01 on August 31, 2017, 05:37:24 PM
You heard about ..Oxygen scavenger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_scavenger

Are you saying dissolve some of this in with the mix?
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: wildfyr on August 31, 2017, 05:39:36 PM
Yes, you dissolve a small amount into your solution.
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: Kawilk01 on August 31, 2017, 05:40:47 PM
Ascorbic acid would fit the bill nicely. BHT (butylated hydroxy toluene) is another common, safe, one. Are you sure its not just being untacky because all the alcohol evaporates

I'm fairly sure the alcohol evaporating isn't the issue. As the regular pine rosin itself is rock form and has no moisture , if you heat it will get tacky. The purpose of the alcohol is to get the resin into suspsenion so it can be applied to a surface in a nice even coating
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: wildfyr on August 31, 2017, 05:59:43 PM
Many polymeric materials are tacky when swollen with solvent, but become brittle and lose tack when the solvent evaporates. The resin isnt being suspended, its being dissolved. There is a discrete but important difference. A suspension implies floating tiny (micron sized) particles, dissolving implies separation of individual molecules by solvent.

However, I agree that oxidation is more likely the problem. I was fishing for the time scale of the adhesive failing. Days--->solvent evaporation months--->oxidation.
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: Kawilk01 on August 31, 2017, 06:06:23 PM
Many polymeric materials are tacky when swollen with solvent, but become brittle and lose tack when the solvent evaporates. The resin isnt being suspended, its being dissolved. There is a discrete but important difference. A suspension implies floating tiny (micron sized) particles, dissolving implies separation of individual molecules by solvent.

However, I agree that oxidation is more likely the problem. I was fishing for the time scale of the adhesive failing. Days--->solvent evaporation months--->oxidation.

You guys are definitely the experts here so I'm willing to try whatever you say. If the solvent evaporating is what's causing it to lose its tack, is there a slow rate solvent could add to keep the track up? It loses its tack fairly quickly after an hour so so you're probably right. When I light the solution and burn it off it gets super tacky for a short period of time and slowly starts to fall off after. It seems like a solvent or other medium that I could add in a small amount is needed
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: wildfyr on September 01, 2017, 03:54:51 AM
You could add a bit of a solvent or liquid that is very high boiling and won't evaporate out to maintain tackiness. Is this a commercial product you want to sell or just something you plan to use around the house?
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: P on September 01, 2017, 05:07:03 AM
You could add a bit of a solvent or liquid that is very high boiling and won't evaporate out to maintain tackiness. Is this a commercial product you want to sell or just something you plan to use around the house?

Like a plasticiser..  :-)  Sounds like a good idea. Some solvents will last longer in the product..  maybe a medium molecular weight paraffin or chlorinated paraffin would stay in the system without ever leaving  -  keeping a little of the products original malleability.
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: Kawilk01 on September 01, 2017, 05:30:07 AM
You could add a bit of a solvent or liquid that is very high boiling and won't evaporate out to maintain tackiness. Is this a commercial product you want to sell or just something you plan to use around the house?

I don't really have any plans for commercial sale. Maybe to a few buddies and such. What solvent/liquid would you reccomend to try?
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: P on September 01, 2017, 05:58:30 AM
There are some ester alcohols and phthalate esters that are harmless enough and of high BP that will stick around for a while..  The medium chained Chlorinated paraffins I mentioned might do it, but I do not know where you would get any if you aren't in the industry.

What about paraffin wax? Would that work to plasticise the rosin?

Try searching around for plasticisers that are available to you and try some maybe, unless anyone has any better ideas.
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: wildfyr on September 01, 2017, 07:48:37 AM
Plastisizer! You'd think as a polymer chemist I would have had an easier time remembering that word  :P
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: Kawilk01 on September 01, 2017, 08:48:15 AM
Plastisizer! You'd think as a polymer chemist I would have had an easier time remembering that word  :P

Afer some more time on google the plasticizer seems like a decent route to check. I read about how in PVC it can be pulled to an adhesive causing it to turn into a "goo" and lose the bond. Maybe a small enough amount in my solution could help it out.

Any particular chemical you'd recommend?
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: Kawilk01 on September 13, 2017, 08:11:40 AM
*Ignore me, I am impatient*, any more info guys?
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: wildfyr on September 13, 2017, 10:03:30 AM
I think P gave you a couple good suggestions, have you tried those?
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: Kawilk01 on September 13, 2017, 12:39:27 PM
I think P gave you a couple good suggestions, have you tried those?

I tried the ascorbic acid you mentioned and it almost seems like it made it worse. It seemed like it sped up the process of it "glassing" over and losing its tackiness. Everything else mentioned seems like it would be a pain for me to get a hold of
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: wildfyr on September 13, 2017, 03:06:15 PM
parraffin?
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: Kawilk01 on September 14, 2017, 03:04:48 AM
parraffin?

Same thing candles are made from right? I suppose I could grab a candle and grind some into the mix and see if it will dissolve and help out
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: P on September 14, 2017, 04:21:34 AM
You may want a liquid paraffin rather than a wax. Presumably a higher viscosity one will be better, idk, as long as it is heavier than your alcohol. Try some differing ones out and see how they impact on your product.

I am not sure about the candle wax. If you can get some chloroparaffin, of a medium molecular weight maybe, then that should do it. You shouldn't need too much in the mix. Too much and it will be too squishy.
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: Kawilk01 on September 14, 2017, 07:53:53 AM
You may want a liquid paraffin rather than a wax. Presumably a higher viscosity one will be better, idk, as long as it is heavier than your alcohol. Try some differing ones out and see how they impact on your product.

I am not sure about the candle wax. If you can get some chloroparaffin, of a medium molecular weight maybe, then that should do it. You shouldn't need too much in the mix. Too much and it will be too squishy.

Where can I get these things? Remember I'm just a regular guy with no special licenses or anything
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: wildfyr on September 14, 2017, 12:17:40 PM
How about this: try mixing in vegetable oil in a few different low concentrations (5>weight %).
Title: Re: Pine Resin Adhesive Oxidation Problems
Post by: Kawilk01 on September 16, 2017, 08:02:43 AM
How about this: try mixing in vegetable oil in a few different low concentrations (5>weight %).

I think this is it man! I added some to a small test batch and it seemed to really help it out. Now I just have to play with it and find the right amount to add without adding too micro make it slick. It seems like the more I added the better it got but I'm sure there is some threshold before it starts to make it slick. Thank you!