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Specialty Chemistry Forums => Citizen Chemist => Topic started by: billnotgatez on August 14, 2005, 06:52:40 AM

Title: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: billnotgatez on August 14, 2005, 06:52:40 AM
This discussion on government restrictions was too large to copy to here.
So I post the link only.
You need to scroll down a short distance.

Christian Thorsten on Laws Affecting Legitimate Amateur Science

http://www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2005/2005-08-12/backscatter/index.html

new link
http://www.soamsci.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2005/2005-08-12/backscatter/index.html
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: billnotgatez on August 23, 2005, 03:19:37 AM
Should I post the contents of the link?
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: billnotgatez on September 05, 2005, 05:59:12 PM
At this time there were 60 views of this post and yet there are no responses.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: hmx9123 on September 05, 2005, 11:34:53 PM
What did you expect?  You led with no comment or opinion, only a link.  People are going to read the link and that's it unless you post something for discussion.  What's your opinion on the laws regarding amateur science?
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: billnotgatez on September 07, 2005, 08:40:07 PM
hmx9123 and Mitch

Thank you for reading the link and posting to this thread.

Bill
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: hmx9123 on September 08, 2005, 01:45:49 PM
So, I must ask again, Bill, what is your take on the article?  I am curious.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: woelen on September 08, 2005, 05:29:44 PM
Well, I must say, this link has done a LOT. I found it here and also posted it on a Dutch forum, where it resulted in a discussion having tens of reactions. Now some people are working on a letter to some Dutch politicians. At the moment the climate in the Netherlands is not good at all for home chemists, due to a recent terrorist murder over here of a well known person (Theo van Gogh) and due to accidents with young boys who were misusing chemicals.

In the meantime, the link also is copied to science madness and over there also is quite some discussion. So, you are the single source of all this discussion and possible spin-off in the form of letters, but unfortunately you have not seen anything of it.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: billnotgatez on September 09, 2005, 03:03:57 AM
hmx9123
The experience that woelen had with this article is what I was hoping for here. I did not want to influence the discussion by giving my opinion. Especially, since I have yet to form a coherent study of the topic. I can say that I am sympathetic to the contention Christian Thorsten puts forth. I was definitely trying to give a place on this forum for this topic, rather than have it littered among other posts that were not specifically related to this topic.  

Woelen
Could you post some links that are discussing this topic from the locations on the Internet that you mention? Especially, the posts that are in English. I appreciate your efforts.

Regards,
Bill
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: woelen on September 09, 2005, 06:01:40 AM
This is the discussion on scimad:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4325 (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4325)
You, however, need to register at the forum if you want to read it and ask the moderator ('Polverone') of the site for a password in order to access this link (the so-called whimsy section of scimad is not freely accessible). This one is not started by myself, someone else has posted the link on scimad.

This is the link at the Dutch forum.
http://chemixtry.fuckhedz.com/index.php?showtopic=2058 (http://chemixtry.fuckhedz.com/index.php?showtopic=2058)
It is freely accessible. This one I started myself. Unfortunately for you, it is in Dutch, so your mileage may vary in your understanding of this :(.
Read post #13 of this thread. One of the members ("Taaie-Neuskoek") has written a letter to the author of the article and received a reply on it. That part at least you can understand. This person "Taaie-Neuskoek" and I intend to write a letter to some Dutch people about this subject.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: billnotgatez on September 09, 2005, 07:39:20 AM
Woelen - thank you very much - Regards Bill
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: billnotgatez on September 14, 2005, 01:19:14 AM
This web page has a discussion about a Texas law requires anyone who owns certain glassware to give up their 4th Amendment protections against unlawful search and seizure.

http://www.sas.org/E-Bulletin/2002-03-29/feedback/body.html

I sympathize with the editor.
Since this is an older post the laws may have changed, but I doubt it.


Elsewhere on the Internet I found the following

As a point of interest --- Another past winner Ig Nobel (1994) in chemistry was Texas State Senator Bob Glasgow for sponsoring the 1989 drug control law which made it illegal to purchase beakers, flasks, test tubes, or other laboratory glassware without a permit. But you still don’t need a permit to buy a hand gun or assault rifle! Go figure!  8-)

Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: woelen on September 14, 2005, 05:59:34 AM
I think the USA is a strange country. The funny thing is that I as a Dutch citizen can obtain much more chems from the USA than I can get from European sources (also things like KBrO3, NaNO2, I2 were happily shipped to me (safely, following ADR-regulations)) while on the other hand I read all those fearsome things about people being watched inside the USA. I have the feeling that it is quite easy to get almost everything (good and bad) from the USA (as long as it yields money and is exported, it is OK), while sending thing TO the USA is really hard and painful.

If I look at the Texas laws, then I only have one word for that: idiot.

Over here, having guns and the like is prohibited. People may participate at shooting clubs, but you need to register your gun and you are only allowed to shoot at the club's place in specially prepared areas or (large) rooms. Only few people over here have guns. In the Netherlands, laws are very restrictive on anything that has to do with explosives, weapons and fireworks. Pyrotechnics simply is forbidden in the Netherlands. Having KClO3 around makes you quite suspect over here, but having that is not forbidden. Showing a little nice fountain in your backyard, however may result in a visit of the police.

Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: jdurg on September 14, 2005, 11:00:21 AM
The problem with many of these 'laws' and editorials about these laws is that the people who write the editorials really don't know much about the legal system and will only take one or two lines from the entire legal code and spout off on it.  Over at another forum, I recently got into a debate with someone over the purchasing of Red Phosphorus.  He replied by giving a snippet of a law that is posted on a DEA website which makes it seem like purchasing red phosphorus is illegal and will get you arrested.  He also claimed that purchasing it will get you watched by the government.  

If you look at the ENTIRE law that is written, you'll see that there is absolutely no place where it says that it's illegal to posess the chemical and trying to buy it will get you arrested.  It simply states the following:

1):  Those who work with and sell large amounts of Red/White Phosphorus and Hypophosphorus acid/salts must keep a record of where that phosphorus is.  I.E. they need to know how much they have at all times.

2):  Those who deal with the phosphorus and the compounds must be registered with the government.

3):  When a sale is made of the phosphorus/compounds, information about the transaction must be documented.  (Nowhere does it say that it has to be reported).

4):  The phosphorus compounds can be sold to anybody as long as it is for an end/use.  I.E. you can't buy ten pounds of the stuff and then sell it to other people without a license.

So the only thing the government is doing is saying that when you sell the phosphorus/compounds, you have to database whom it was sold to and how much.  This is not 'watching' you nor is it saying that it's illegal.  All the government is doing is keeping a database for evidence purposes.  If someone who's been buying red phosphorus and ephedrine gets busted for methamphetamine production, they'll have proof of the purchasing as evidence for conviction.

Further into all the CFR documents, you'll read that you can possess all the chemicals you want for the production of drugs/bombs as long as you aren't knowingly obtaining them for that purpose.  You are allowed to have almost any chemical on earth as long as you aren't attempting to do something illegal with it.  Sadly, when an editorial is written, the part about 'knowingly possessing them for said use' is omitted from the quote, and all you read is 'It's illegal to possess'.

If you aren't doing anything illegal, then you have nothing to worry about.  If you are doing something illegal, then I have no sympathy for you.

As a side note, there are two chemicals I know of which are illegal to posses.  One can only be possessed if you have a license, and the other is just not allowed to be had.  Anhydrous ethanol that is not denatured cannot be possessed without a license.  This is due to the fact that you can drink the stuff and there is a mandatory alcohol tax which is applied to any drinkable alcohol.  The anhydrous stuff has no tax on it, so it's incredibly cheap.  As a result, the government doesn't want you buying it and selling it as tax-free alcohol.  The other chemical is diethyl amine and that's because there is no other use for diethyl amine aside from LSD production.  Any other reaction that it would be used in can be accomplished with other chemicals in the same manner.  For LSD production, however, ONLY diethylamine would work.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: limpet chicken on September 14, 2005, 12:18:25 PM
Actually Jdurg, there are plenty of other uses of diethylamine, one of which is reductive amintion of P2P or MD-P2P to give ethylamphetamine or MDME respectively ;D
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: billnotgatez on September 14, 2005, 08:57:48 PM
Do you think it is time to stop taxing ethanol?
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: billnotgatez on September 14, 2005, 09:01:01 PM
Do you think it is appropriate to be subject to search at any time if you register that you have glassware or phosphorus?
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: Taaie-Neuskoek on September 15, 2005, 06:46:58 AM
The law in The Netherlands doesn't say anything concerning a lab in your house, however, tehy will probably get aal the chems out of your house here because you didn't store tehm acording regulations.

On the dutch forum I heard a story that a guy's house was searched by the police after they were tipped by an aquintance of that guy. The police took everything, and the charges agianst him were that he could have made explosives with it. However, he won the case as the court based his findings only on the labels he had put on his chemicals, but they didn't actually check the content.
A week later they've searched his house again, took samples of everyhting, and they went to court again.
Now they put up against him that he wanted to make molotov coctails because he had a jerrycan of gasoline, some glass jars and some rags in his garage.. :o. I don't know the ending....
Though the defence agains this would be easy, just go and search every house in my street, and report what you find. I'd bet you will find enough chemicals to make a massive bonfire!

Here a story from Sciencemadness, currently the Gestape hunts down 700 people who ordered stuff from a chemocal supplier who did things illegal and got busted. Here is the story:
Quote
It's a long story, and a sad one.

Quite some time ago, there was an online chemical supplier with the nickname"chemonline" which was run by an individual, S.K.
It had a large selection of important base chemicals, like NaOH, KOH, H2SO4, HNO3, H2O2, lots of different salts , but also some otherwise hard to get solvents like methanol (very hard to get in germany), diethylether, chloroform and more. Also interesting chemicals like NaNO2.
Metal powders and various oxidisers (KNO3, KClO3...) were also in the sortiment, as well as red phosphorus.
The great thing about this shop were the prices. They were fantastically low (like 10$ for 250g red P), because he ordered everything in industrial quantities and repackaged it. It enabled people with a very limited budget, like young chemists still in school, to experiment with a variety of chemicals which would otherwise be unaccessible due to price and lack of companies who ship to individuals.
Amateur chemistry was flowering at these times.
Of course this shop was illegal (but only for S.K.!), and he also valued the security of his customers by not saving any information about the ordered chemicals.

Then he got busted. It was a sad day, and the end of easy and cheap access to chemicals.

Then now, more than a year after this incident (!!!), suddenly a lot of fellow chemists get their house searched because they ordered from there. The search warrants (normally quite hard to get for a police officer in germany) reason this with "suspicion that the individual is making pyrotechnical devices and mixtures without a licence".
The absolutely ridiculous thing about this is that the police knows NOTHING about which chems were ordered, and they still get a search warrant.
They just know the names of the ones who ordered there from his bank account where he received the money.
S.K. had about a thousand customers in entire germany, and ALL of them will get their house searched, (me too, it can likely be tomorrow).
No further suspicion, just the fact that they ordered "chemicals" now is enough for a search warrant.
The chemicals were always confiscated.
Sometimes, an expert for explosives accompanied the cops and looked at the chems. They have no idea what chemical experiments could be performed with them, they just know what explosives can be made with them. They get very excited when they see acetone, as it can be made into an explosive very easily.
And I thought that the situation in america was bad...
This sudden turning of the BRD into a police state was very shocking for us.
And there is absolutely no media coverage of those events, everything is happening undercover. We do not want to address the media, because we were terribly betrayed by them once before where they showed us as the bad guys.

We will do our best to defend us, we will write letters to the ministry of education and research and the chemical society, and we will try to sue the state lawyers which are responsible for this criminalization campaign, and the judges which give out search warrants no matter how far-fetched the reason is.

We'll have to see what we can do.
This story was written by Garage Chemist, in this thread:http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4396
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: jdurg on September 15, 2005, 09:52:49 AM
Do you think it is appropriate to be subject to search at any time if you register that you have glassware or phosphorus?

Those who are required to register their phosphorus quantities are suppliers; i.e. stores and distributors.  End-users are not required to register their supply.  The seller of the phosphorus is required to keep a record of how much of the stuff is sold and to whom.  This is to database the fact that Joe Shmoe bought x amount of phosphorus.  If enough probable cause exists, then they can use that evidence against him in a court case.  

If I'm an innocent person who is doing nothing illegal, then the chances of a random search don't bother me at all.  It's those who are doing illegal things that are always upset and uptight about this.  I have nothing to hide and make it well known that I have white phosphorus, red phosphorus, violet phosphorus, black phosphorus, uranium metal, iodine, nitric acid, etc. etc.  If the cops want to come to my door and look through everything, then be my guest.  I'd have fun showing them all my stuff.

Another thing to remember about stories you read is that they are typically exaggerated by at least one side in order to get sympathy.  I've read many, many stories about people being searched and their possessions seized, and they make it out to sound like they were innocent people who were doing nothing wrong.  A little research into the story indicates that it either never happened; the accused was actually making illegal compounds but failed to mention it; or the accused had a past history of illegal activities for which the warrant was justified.  

Now I'm not saying that every story you hear is made up and not true, but I'm saying to be very wary about 'A friend of a friend of mine's next door neighbor etc. etc.' type of stories without having any other 'supporting evidence'.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: billnotgatez on September 16, 2005, 02:10:13 AM
It sure is hard to separate urban myth type of stories from the real thing.

On the other hand, the postulate that “If I'm an innocent person who is doing nothing illegal, then I should have no worries from the law” seems naive.

Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: woelen on September 16, 2005, 02:39:35 AM
I agree with jdurg to a large extent, but sometimes you can have bad luck. The story of the person, who has lost all his stuff, because of having some rags, glass bottles and gasoline in his garage seems a little bit bold to me, but certainly bad things can happen.

A person, who I know personally (and whom I have visited almost a year ago), was selling some nice glassware on a Dutch eBay-like site (www.marktplaats.nl). A few weeks, after he placed the advertisement on the marktplaats-site, he was visited by some official, who wanted to have a look at his house. This person insepected all his stuff, but nothing was taken away and no official warning was given to him. This happened approximately half a year ago. Up to now, however, nothing special happened anymore. The glassware still is offered on-line and he still has all his stuff. So, indeed, you can have the bad luck that someone wants to inspect your things, but taking away all of it or being put in custody is another matter. He also had quite some chems at home, but apparently these were not of a nature that further action needed to be taken. I know that he does nothing with pyrotechnics, and I think that is his great luck. Otherwise things would have looked quite different I'm afraid.

But on the other hand, if I were him, I would not like such an official visit at all (he also was not amused at all). I simply want that kind of persons to stay out of my house! But if such a person were to visit me, then I also would be very cooperative to him (her?) and be honest about what I'm doing (also referring to my Internet activities, my website etc.) showing that I have no bad intentions. In that case you have the best chance to get away with it.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: jdurg on September 16, 2005, 11:17:39 AM
Exactly Woelen.  If you do get searched and you are acting all figidty and not able to put coherent sentences together, then you will leave a bit of question in the minds of the inspectors.  If you say to them that 'you mix this red phosphorus with a white powder and hit with a hammer to make it go KABOOM and see other neat chemistry stuff happen', you'll sound very suspicious.  Now if you say that you use the 'red phosphorus to form unique transition metal complexes with oxygen, nitrogen, and other organic polymers', you'll sound like an intelligent person.  (Now I just made that up right there, so don't take that as an actual line you would use).  But understand that if you come across as a complete amateur in the chemistry field you will look and appear to be like someone breaking the law.  Whether that's true or not doesn't matter.  If you come across with a great knowledge of the materials involved and actually show them what you're doing, then you'll look like a person with a legitimate use of the stuff and there would be nothing to worry about.

I personally don't worry because they can search my home all they want.  They'll find nothing illegal.  I don't understand how that can be considered 'naive' if one knows the law.  There is a part of the U.S. Constituation which declares unfounded searches and seizures illegal.  For a search, you just need some type of probably cause.  For a seizure, you need a HELLUVA lot more.  Now before you start talking about the 'Patriot Act', you must realize that the 'Patriot Act' doesn't give the government the absolute right to take anything they want.  They still have to have a 'without a doubt' provable reason for taking the items.  Even then, if the courts decide that there was no lawful reason to seize the items, they must be returned and the government gets into some serious issues.  All these new laws force the general public to learn some things about the legal system and actually understand what their rights are.  In a sense, that's a good thing.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: billnotgatez on September 17, 2005, 09:10:20 PM
Jdurg fortunately you do not live in Texas
also
I bet a real sharp law officer could find something illegal in your home.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: billnotgatez on October 16, 2005, 01:09:55 AM
Do you realize that if you live in some states, such as Texas you are not required to have a permit to buy a hand gun but you are required to have one in order to buy an Erlenmeyer flask or similar lab glassware?
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: pantone159 on May 30, 2006, 12:55:19 PM
http://wired.com/wired/archive/14.06/chemistry_pr.html
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: Borek on May 30, 2006, 01:18:29 PM
Sad.

So far it doesn't look that hard in Poland.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: constant thinker on May 30, 2006, 04:39:34 PM
Thank god I live in New Hampshire where our state motto is "Live Free or Die," otherwise we may have laws restricting things like glassware, chemicals, etc. Every time someone wants to try to come up with a bill to ban something there is usually a huge public out cry.

That is a sad story though, and the article does raise the point that the chemicals under your kitchen sink are really poisonous.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: Mitch on May 30, 2006, 05:17:50 PM
Don't worry Chemical Forums will always be a home for responsible citizen science. We'll develop that side more as time goes on.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: billnotgatez on May 30, 2006, 05:24:33 PM
Appalling

The government does not have to pass laws to stop you. It just has to charge you with something and you have to decide whether to go broke hiring a lawyer or promise to quit what you are doing.

Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: Borek on May 30, 2006, 05:41:33 PM
Don't worry Chemical Forums will always be a home for responsible citizen science. We'll develop that side more as time goes on.

In the worst case we can always move hosting to Poland ;)
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: joeflsts on May 30, 2006, 10:12:43 PM
My take on the hobby.. Half the fun is obtaining reagents.  In fact I think the research is almost as fun as the experiment itself.. well almost.  I'm not worried that we won't be able to continue our hobby... I'm worried that our youth may elect to specialize in video games rather than something that actually engages critical thinking..

Hey I'm going to be in your neck of the woods in June.

Joe
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: constant thinker on June 01, 2006, 05:25:25 PM
Not all video games are bad. I play SimCity 4, which builds critical thinking and planning. It's a pretty hard game. I admittedly play First Person Shooters sometimes though. Those are only good for reflexes. Don't worry though, my life isn't dedicated to games. It's a conglomerate of a lot of things.

[Edit] I made a typo. It's bold now what I fixed. When I was younger though, I used to always play video games all the time.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: Borek on June 01, 2006, 05:45:08 PM
my life is dedicated to games

For about 5 years I was playing something like 10 hours a day. Day by day. And I was paid for that :)
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: Borek on June 01, 2006, 05:46:30 PM
Hey I'm going to be in your neck of the woods in June.

You mean this side of the pond, or close to Warsaw? :)
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: silkworm on June 01, 2006, 06:34:21 PM
This is horrible. Our irrational fear is causing even more ignorance.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: constant thinker on June 01, 2006, 08:38:36 PM
Right now I'm kind of an internet junky and a drum junky (I love my drums). As soon as I get some more money, I'm going to purchase glassware and glass tubing so I can build a better lab.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: pantone159 on June 01, 2006, 10:34:49 PM
For about 5 years I was playing something like 10 hours a day. Day by day. And I was paid for that :)

My last 3 jobs were programming for games.  That is definitely an interesting job (and one where knowing calculus is actually important!) but it can be stressful.  The industry is very volatile - most projects end up being cancelled, often with job cuts.  There are way too many long days, too.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: limpet chicken on June 03, 2006, 08:31:57 PM
Things are getting hot over in the UK, I got woken up by swine, oinking around the other day, looking for red phos, although I made it clear "get a warrant, or piss off", they didn't have a warrant :D


The whole thing is making me paranoid as hell though, I'm thinking I might bury everything off-site, and dig up whats needed, when its needed.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: woelen on June 04, 2006, 01:58:35 PM
Fortunately there still is a lot of freedom in the Netherlands. Over here, we do not really have to worry from the government, but from the public opinion. We can get almost every chemical we want (although some effort in needed in finding a source for it), even things lime red P, I2, NaCN, P2O5, CHCl3, etc. can be obtained. On the other hand, people are really afraid of everything, which has a long and difficult name, and they associate it with poison, explosive, instant death in a bottle. That is the sad thing for home chemists over here....
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: constant thinker on June 05, 2006, 04:09:26 PM
On the other hand, people are really afraid of everything, which has a long and difficult name, and they associate it with poison, explosive, instant death in a bottle. That is the sad thing for home chemists over here....

That's a problem here too. I'm thinking that anything people are unfamiliar with they just naturally will not trust.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: hmx9123 on June 05, 2006, 05:29:43 PM
The CPSC has been trying to shut down consumer fireworks for a long time.  They are now going after the raw materails in a hope to gain an edge on fireworks in general--sadly it will take home chemistry with it unless you know how to make the raw chemicals yourself.  I think this is on Mitch's blog someplace.

Anyway, the CPSC is taking their liberties with the chemical suppliers based on this post 9/11 'security' crap.  It's really sad to see how such an event can kill our freedoms here at home.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: redbaron on June 15, 2006, 07:33:38 PM
Fortunately there still is a lot of freedom in the Netherlands. Over here, we do not really have to worry from the government, but from the public opinion. We can get almost every chemical we want (although some effort in needed in finding a source for it), even things lime red P, I2, NaCN, P2O5, CHCl3, etc. can be obtained. On the other hand, people are really afraid of everything, which has a long and difficult name, and they associate it with poison, explosive, instant death in a bottle. That is the sad thing for home chemists over here....
There are a couple people that I talk to regularly in the Netherlands. Your government has a great philosophy- letting people watch out for themselves- I wish they would adopt that concept here in the states. I would love to be able to just get my Potassium Nitrate, Chloroform, or Marijuana :o without the paperwork and legal paranoia.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: Baseball_Fan on June 16, 2006, 02:13:40 AM
When I was a child, one birthday gift was a chemistry set in a box. It came with small plastic bottles filled with different chemicals, some plastic tubes, and a book of experiments. I remember talking with friends, trying to see if there were more interesting experiments we could do, that were not in the book. We got tried quickly of making volcanos.

I guess today, those kinds of conversations would be illegal.

I do remember in highschool a friend got a copy of the anarchist cookbook. I took a glance at it, and most of it looked like BS or dangerous. But it wasn't possible to buy a chemistry set, so people interested in backyard chemistry started looking for other sources of information.

I remember one experiment, and it was a stupid one! I was not around for it, but a friend tried to dissolve styrofome into gasoline in his garage. He wanted to see if he could make napalm. It did not work out like the anarchist cookbook said it would. But even if he was able to make it, what could he use it for? I guess curious people will do whatever experiments they find, just because they want to see what happens. 

My point is, it's better to have books written and sold in the open, so what is dangerous experiments can be avoided. Otherwise children will download ideas from the interent, which could be very dangerous.

There was a movie called October Sky, about a young child who became fascinated with making rockets. He eventually went to work for NASA. But what he did is illegal today. The government would arrest anyone who tries to make a home made rocket.

I guess it is the world we live in. It is a shame, because I think interest is cultivated when young.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: hmx9123 on June 24, 2006, 12:59:58 AM
It was mentioned earlier that there is nothing to fear if you're doing everything legally.  That is not true.  If you are doing things legally, you can still have your property seized if you are searched, legally or illegally.  Usually it's up to you to prove that the search was illegal, which costs you money.  You ask not to say anything if you don't have experience.  I do.  Firsthand.  Back in Missouri, nothing ever happened to me because no one really cares what you do there.  Here in California, however, it has been a different issue.

I can't afford to live in a nice part of town; I just moved to a different town, but while I was in the bay area, I lived on the Berkeley Oakland border.  This is a pretty crummy area of town.  My car is old and sort of beat up, plust it's a Caprice, so it looks like a gang-banger's car.  I didn't have a driveway or off-street parking, so I had to park it in the street.  Imagine my feeling when I walked back home one evening to find my car gone.  I thought it had been stolen at first, but when I called the police, they said that my car had been towed.  I asked them why, they had no answer.  They towed it late on a Friday afternoon, too, so there was no chance I could call and ask them why.  I spent the entire weekend trying to get my car back.  I was finally told that my car had been towed because the license plates had expired.  I was shocked--my plates were current through 2007 and had the stickers on them to prove it.  Then they wouldn't release my car to me until I showed them the current registration.  I told them the registration was in the car, which was impounded.  After a lot of cajoling and much calling and frustration, I was finally allowed in to get my registration out of the glove box.  I was flabberghasted to find that my car was not only unlocked in the lot, but it had also been tossed (searched).  The contents of my glove box were all over the front seat and floor of the car, my ashtray had been dumped all over the car, and to top it all off, my registration was sitting on top of the pile, meaning that they had DEFINITELY seen it!  Upon closer inspection, the Berkeley PD had left a screwdriver in my car that they had been using to take apart the panels under my dash (which were off when I got there).  When I asked about this, they told me that they were allowed to 'inventory' the car for valuable items.  This is simply a legal method for them to search your car.  Sorry, inventoring my car does not include tearing it apart.  Then, I showed them my registration.  They then said that they didn't know for sure that the license plates of my car had the stickers on them, so I had to go back to the impound, take pictures of my plates and print them out to show that the stickers were indeed on my car.  Only then did they release my car to me.  It was infuriating.  The whole reason they searched my car was because they thought it was a gang-banger's car and that it might contain drugs.  I did nothing illegal and had nothing illegal in the car, but I had it illegally towed and searched anyway.  On top of that, they were still going to charge me $250 for towing and storage until I pulled out a tape recorder.  Then they were very nice and had a nice sergeant come and waive my fees.

So, yes, if you're doing nothing illegal, you might be OK in the long run, but you'll definitely have a huge headache, and a waste of time and money.  In some states, if they confiscate material, even if it is legal to have, such as your red P, they may not have to give it back if it can be used to make drugs.  You should be very careful with it.  Some cops are cool, others, like those here in Kalifornia, are not.  In Kalifornia, if they police take a firearm that is legally owned by you, for any reason--even just to test it or as part of search, legal or not, you have to petition the state to give you your gun back--and they don't have to give it to you!

Also, there is the federal drug statute.  Say your friend is riding in your car and he has a dime bag of weed on him.  If the cops pull you over for a routing traffic stop and happen to find weed on your friend, they can seize your car.  Even if the search is thrown out, they are not obligated to give you your property back--you have to sue them to get it back, and you'll only get it back if the search was illegal--even if your friend didn't tell you about the drugs and you had nothing to do with them.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: AfromOz on December 27, 2006, 11:34:54 AM
The Decline of Secondary Chemistry

Have been teaching chemistry in Australia for over 10 years.

Each year, I see more chemicals and experiments banned due to potential hazards.

If it continues in this manner, it won't be long before a lab "experiment" will consist of the kids sitting in their chairs with seatbelts and safety glasses watching someone dissolving sodium chloride into tepid water on a DVD. ::)

Cheers,

Adam
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: constant thinker on December 27, 2006, 01:17:22 PM
Each year, I see more chemicals and experiments banned due to potential hazards.

That must be pretty annoying. Educate the people that are banning the experiments. Show them what safety precautions you take.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: AfromOz on December 27, 2006, 02:04:21 PM
Tell me about it.

I'll give the Bunsen burner another 5 years MAX in Australian schools. :-[

Educate? They just want safety. All it takes is for some dumb kid to get a burn and I have to fill out a 3 page incident report. Some parents then ask for the hazard assessment for the experiment - which takes ages to write.

So, more and more teachers are simply saying, "NO".

At a recent lab tech conference, many lab techs refuse to handle copper sulfate now.

Someone forgot to tell them not to drink it.

Banned chemicals end up chez moi.

Cheers,

Adam
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: Borek on December 27, 2006, 04:12:13 PM
From what I read on CHEMED-L same tendency is observed in US.  It becomes more and more absurd. We will regret effects in about 20-30 years IMHO.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: mafiaparty303 on December 29, 2006, 02:15:47 PM
that thing is whack!

"if you have a lab you are either a criminal or a crackpot" what are they talking about??? All those chemists back in like.. a long time ago used their own stuff like alchemists, and they discovered pretty useful things and now the gov. is telling us that only they are the really established people to conduct experiments!



and "No normal person would have whatever whatever"

Then i hope everyone that has that whatever whatever is proud of themselves for not being a "normal person"


tsk tsk what is this world coming to....
?



Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: billnotgatez on December 30, 2006, 12:09:35 AM
A while ago I saw a new trend in education. Instead of doing labs high school students would watch labs being done on video. The idea was that then the school would not be liable for errors by students or teachers. This video company was in the process of getting this accepted by state school authorities. They were also showing that it was cheaper to do videos than have actual labs. This was very convincing since most schools have tight budgets and labs tend to be more costly than lecture. No more dropping 50 gram weights on your toe by mistake during physics labs. No more cutting your self during a dissection in biology. No more teachers catching schools on fire with chemistry demonstrations. The choice according to the Video Company was clear. Since more and more schools were dropping labs that were considered dangerous, that this way is better. It is better to see the lab than not see it at all.

The corollary to this is obvious. No one needs to do chemistry at home since you can see it on video. Anyone who does have chemicals is up to no good.

I reject this, but those who do are in a minority.


Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: woelen on December 30, 2006, 12:23:58 PM
The Decline of Secondary Chemistry

Have been teaching chemistry in Australia for over 10 years.

Each year, I see more chemicals and experiments banned due to potential hazards.

If it continues in this manner, it won't be long before a lab "experiment" will consist of the kids sitting in their chairs with seatbelts and safety glasses watching someone dissolving sodium chloride into tepid water on a DVD. ::)

Cheers,

Adam
Over here in the Netherlands, experimenting also is banned from many schools. The pupils still see the experiments, but they may not do them themselves anymore. A specially educated practical assistant does the experiments and the pupils may watch the experiments. It is sad that they are not allowed anymore to do the experiments themselves.

A few months ago, in  one school over here, some white P (a few grams) catched fire and that gives a dense cloud of P4O10. The practical assistant could confine the fire himself and nothing special happened. All pupils left the room without any ill effect. But nevertheless, it was a NATIONAL news item, where the horrors of chemistry were discussed in great detail. After this incident, a group of safety experts/consultants has analysed the risk-situation in that school, and of course a 100+ page report was written about this. Starting from this, there was a discussion about how the risks can be further reduced, now also practical assistents sometimes make mistakes.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: Borek on December 30, 2006, 12:52:48 PM
We are getting weak as community, We are less and less ready to agree to the fact that there are things that can't be done without risk. You can't win a war without casualties, you can't become a carpenter without risking your fingers, you can't become chemist without taking some risks on the way. We are not accepting it and that's stupid.

To quote REM: It's the end of the world as we know it
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: P-man on December 30, 2006, 12:55:44 PM
Fortunatly here in Canada we are still allwoed to do experiments in school. I used to go to an alternative private school for elementary and we didn't have a lab. However we had a study block on inorganic chemistry. Basically what happened was we turned our classroom into a lab. Sulphuric acid, phosphorous, everything. The floor had quite a few red marks by the end of the three weeks.

And we are allowed to buy glassware. There's a shop here I go to that's good for glassware but they don't have any chemicals. And it seems that chemicals are getting harder and harder to get. Luckily I got a collection from my old teacher but I am going to need to buy some more. So it seems I am going to have to turn to the Internet to get my new supply.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: mafiaparty303 on December 30, 2006, 09:05:04 PM
Here in California we do labs as well but our principal is too stupid, instead of buying supplies for school he goes out and builds a football stadium, and the sad thing is, only what, i dont know anything about the NFL only like 30 highschool students out of all the highschools in america get choosen to do anytnhing with the pros... ya well last time i checked the other million highschoolers are getting into science and all those other subjects, I do think that school supplies is a lot more important then investing in nothing with a stupid football stadium.

Anyone agree?
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: constant thinker on December 30, 2006, 09:08:21 PM
We still do lots of labs. Probably 1/2 of them involve mainly just dissolving and burning relatively benign chemicals. We have worked with concentrated acids and bases multiple times though. The honors classes do the good labs. The other chemistry classes for the most part work with extremely dilute acids/bases and sugar.

We've had mishaps (excluding the occasional destruction of test tubes and beakers), but they taken care of efficiently.
The teacher knocked over a bottle of concentrated sulfuric acid (in the fume hood). The teacher reacted it with lots of sodium bicarbonate. The causalities were 2 lab books.
Another time a pipette got squeezed (it was a cheap plastic thing that is only good for holding small amounts of liquids or transferring liquids), and glacial acetic acid hit another kid on the other side of the lab bench in the forehead. The teacher responded immediately, and the kid only had a nice red line on his forehead that has since dissapeared.
The most recent mishap of the was when some unknown powders (we were doing a powder identification lab, I got iodine all over my hand) caught on fire release some black smoke that turned part of our ceiling black, but an open window cleared that up.

My point here is accidents happen, but if the teacher is ready for them, and the students are educated in what to do, any mishaps are really just minor problems. We always where aprons and safety goggles.

P.S. American football is awesome, but I would have to say education does come first.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: dzoys on June 25, 2008, 07:40:17 PM
It sure is hard to separate urban myth type of stories from the real thing.

On the other hand, the postulate that “If I'm an innocent person who is doing nothing illegal, then I should have no worries from the law” seems naive.



exactly what the government wants the citizen to believe when they passed the patriot act.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: Christxu on December 22, 2009, 08:14:14 AM
Do you think it is time to stop taxing ethanol? ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: typhoon2028 on December 22, 2009, 04:06:57 PM
I on the fence with this topic.

On one hand, I worry about people having unlimited access to any chemical without oversight.  Explosives are not my main concern.  I am more worried about contamination to the water supply.  Small towns are just not equipped to handle some chemicals.

The other hand.  I don't want the government to keep tabs on me.  The government or anyone should not be able to collect and store data on me without my consent.  That violates my right to privacy.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: skyjumper on January 12, 2010, 06:04:44 PM
My parents are convinced I will "make a bomb" because I want to get some beakers and basic reagents off of the internet. They are scared they will LOSE THERE HOUSE because the government aparently does that if they find so much as a beaker out of a "real" chemistry lab. Being a department aid, my days consist of such tasks as demonstrating ALKALINE EARTH metals (because sodium or lithium is WAY to dangerous), but ask my mom! Im going to blow my face off from dropping a couple mG of calcium into a large beaker. Mixing concentrated acids and bases so that the kids do not need to handle the pure caustic chemicals is another aspect of my day. She is irate that the school even provides such a chemical. People don't realize that in a high school, the safety precautions are great, fume hoods, basic and acidic solutions ready to immediately neutralize a spill.

I try to explain to them that what I do in a fully stocked chemistry lab is safe, antecedents do happen but we are prepared. They also lack the comprehension of home chemistry as a non bomb making activity (Thanks FOX, and CNN.), things like when the news says "A High explosive... IN YOUR HOUSE! 2 COMMON chemicals mixed." Yeah, just like sodium which has the bad habit of blowing the hell up on contact with water (you know what I mean) and chlorine, you know that poison gas, make salt. Oh and iodine which is always used to make a bomb is added to that salt, because your body needs it.

I believe that with out every single American taking a genuine lab based chemistry class, we will always be a dieing breed of people. Those who are not simply satisfied with a statement in a text book, and a youtube video done by a professional, but those who wish to learn hands on, and get real life knowledge to boot.   

Slowly but surly I am breaking through to them. It will be a while. She says she doesnt want me "doing chemistry behind her back" because she left me so many other options.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: scratfin on January 15, 2010, 08:13:20 PM
Well, I'm certainly not surprised by these laws. These drug dealers and hoodlums are too much trouble. Still, it's a relatively strong argument on the government's side. Really, from the people here I would expect that only a small handful handle advanced toxic or corrosive chemicals. Then we look at the drug making/dealing side and I expect there are many more people like that (probably not on this website). Simply put it: our government is more concerned about protecting people even if it means a few less genius minds.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: 408 on January 16, 2010, 03:32:56 AM
Simply put it: our government is more concerned about protecting people even if it means a few less genius minds.

That is a pretty picture.

When you look at the knowledge of your average lawmaker, they come from backgrounds that know nothing about science.  And since their goal is to get reelected, the real goal of all politicians; they need to PRETEND to be protecting people.  How best to do this then to 'regulate' things that the vast great unwashed consider scary, like toxic or corrosive chemicals.  It does not matter that while unregulated these materials never caused any harm (ok, granted an incident or two now and again) but where things that statistically cause more harm (like swimming pools) are left unchecked.  Not that pools should be regulated, just that they need to be passing feel-good legislation that hurts as small a group as possible as to not loose too many votes, but at the same time to appear to be increasing safety to the rest of society, to gain more votes.  Home chemists are just one group that get the short end of the stick here, homosexuals, gun owners, all have been victims to politics like these, and as has been seen the only way to protect ones freedom is to have enough of the discriminated group to be a major political force, or to somehow change how politics works.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: scratfin on January 18, 2010, 12:48:56 AM
Simply put it: our government is more concerned about protecting people even if it means a few less genius minds.

That is a pretty picture.

When you look at the knowledge of your average lawmaker, they come from backgrounds that know nothing about science.  And since their goal is to get reelected, the real goal of all politicians; they need to PRETEND to be protecting people.  How best to do this then to 'regulate' things that the vast great unwashed consider scary, like toxic or corrosive chemicals.  It does not matter that while unregulated these materials never caused any harm (ok, granted an incident or two now and again) but where things that statistically cause more harm (like swimming pools) are left unchecked.  Not that pools should be regulated, just that they need to be passing feel-good legislation that hurts as small a group as possible as to not loose too many votes, but at the same time to appear to be increasing safety to the rest of society, to gain more votes.  Home chemists are just one group that get the short end of the stick here, homosexuals, gun owners, all have been victims to politics like these, and as has been seen the only way to protect ones freedom is to have enough of the discriminated group to be a major political force, or to somehow change how politics works.
Right, but posting this publicly viewable by an audience that fully approves of home chemistry is one thing. What would the average people who say "chemistry was my least favorite subject" feel about this. The same way you look at politicians they look at people like us. Of course they work for votes just as we work for knowledge (which in the end is actually better). Still, the everyday English teacher wouldn't much approve of some guy working with corrosive chemicals etc. The point here is to gain votes by making the general public feeling safer.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: 408 on January 18, 2010, 02:26:35 PM
The point here is to gain votes by making the general public feeling safer.

Excellent, we are on the same page.  These initiatives do nothing to actually increase safety, the idiots the politicians pander to only think they do.

I have no practical instant solution, home chemist numbers are far too small for the victories that have been achieved by similarly-discriminated against groups.  Groups that have successfully pushed back ineffective, feel good, legislation usually have around 10% representation in the population, with only a fraction of them politically active.  Home chemists are far far less than 1% of the population. 

But based on what I have observed speaking to political fighters that have been with their respective fights 'since the beginning' of their effectual lobbying, is to get everyone affected on the same page, to create a larger support base for effective lobbying.  This means convincing all chemists that useless regulation starts with individuals, but chemophobia spreads into 'real labs', which of course it does.  Then working with amateur biologists, physicists, general tinkerers and much of the DIY groups, we would have a larger lobby, hopefully extending throughout the science community. 

Then we are a political force, and it costs more votes than a politician would gain by creating such ineffective, feel good legislation.  Even if the vote ratio would not work out in our favour, actual contact with politicians is a good way be heard.  There is no organized 'anti-home-chemistry' lobby, so with numbers it would be relatively easy to have 50 different people mail, or show up in a politician's office, with no one on the opposing side.  A feign of vote force that I have seen work Extremely well in other circles. 

Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: Zerm on November 23, 2010, 09:44:40 PM
Personally, I'm of the opinion that this generation would be much better off if we all played with dynamite when we were kids.

Taking a more pragmatic angle though, the best thing we can do as group is to spread the hobby.  Only when amateur science becomes common will people accept it as common.  I strongly believe a large problem with our society is lack of scientific inquiry.  People don't seem to understand that PEOPLE do science.  I am an electrical engineer by trade and people tell me all of the time "wow, you're so smart" and "I could never do what you do"  That's absurd.  Anyone could do what I do if they cared enough to learn about it just as anyone can do chemistry if they have the time and ambition to learn.  We must tear down the illusion that scientists belong in ivory towers removed from the masses weaving their craft as wizards in a manner that could never be understood by the common folk. 

When I perform chemistry out of my garage, why does no one ever assume it is a purely scientific pursuit.  Science is apparently only done in large laboratory facilities and sanctioned by corporations and government.  Science isn't done by you and me because it CAN'T be done by you and me.  This is what they believe, but they are wrong.  Science is only done by you and me.  Professional chemists are the same as you and me.  We differ in the path we have taken to our knowledge but are bound by the passion for scientific thought.  It takes only passion and intrigue to be a scientist.  The more people who realize this, the better off our world will be.

If we are to curb the trend of stereotype against home scientists, we must generate awareness.  We must generate interest in home science.  We must make home science serve our communities.  We must educate.  Only then may we be free to our pursuit of scientific enlightenment. 
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: 408 on November 24, 2010, 02:47:28 AM
Personally, I'm of the opinion that this generation would be much better off if we all played with dynamite when we were kids.



I gave you +1 just for that statement, and am in complete agreement.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: zaphraud on June 08, 2011, 10:22:03 AM
I beg to differ!!!

The emergence of microwave-accelerated reactions and the resulting "green chemistry" that becomes possible should actually trigger a resurgence in the possibility of performing exciting home chemical research; additionally because the microwave itself is somewhat new (magnetron invented in WWII, kept heavily classified for some time afterward), there is a ton of research to do here.

Even in the absence of microwave-specific effects, the simple ability to heat from within makes all sorts of reactions possible that never were before using only low-toxicity reagents. You can use an insulating, dehydrating substrate like silica, and still perform high-speed reactions. You simply can't do that with any other heating method.

If you want to do real research in the home, and find something that matters, fire up your microwave.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: godneal on August 16, 2012, 01:20:11 PM
i was long ago labled a wack job and by one neighbor even called a nutter.  i have what the neighborhood has labled the shed of doom.  and even had the exspress pleasure of being raided by the local drug enforcement team with the four hours of exsplaining my readon for having a very large variety of multiple chems and all of my glassware was swabed and tested on sight as well as scrapings taken from my walls snd tje ominus we will be back.  this kind of thing is blown way out of proprtion.  after i got raided the roumer mill started running and by the end of the week everyone was convinced i was building bombs and cooking meth.  these sterio types of civ chemists is horrible.  and the funny part is i talked to the lady that called the cops on me and showed her how many doff chems she had in her house that could be used as precursors or to make the precursors to both drugs and exsplosives.  9 chances out of 10 if you have a gallon of bleach you are already in possesion of high exsplosives.  potassium chlorate was used as a filler exsplosiv in  WW2.  in the end it falls to if you havent broken the law with the chems you wont go to jail.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: zsinger on April 12, 2014, 02:47:30 PM
There is ABSOLUTELY more than one use for DEA (Diethylamine).  That is simply wrong chemistry.
              -Zack
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: Joeyups7 on May 11, 2014, 06:45:20 PM
In my opinion it's not hard to get chemicals. I found most from places online and people I know who have had them shipped. I prefer learning how to make them. But also in my opinion I think the main reason why people are staying away from home chemistry is because the active chemists drive them away. Most of what I see is experienced people continually bashing the inexperienced. If you can't write the equation why are you here? Or how much experience do you have? Go to google. It seems most chemists I meet are such sticklers and are a huge contributing factor. I don't have a huge backround in chemistry at all. But I love to learn and experiment. And through all this learning I still can't write all the equations and know all the technical terms. But I know the raw basics and that's not good enough for most. If people were a little more accepting of the new, young, beginner chemist maybe there would be an incline and maybe with that incline there would be enough people to try and get laws changed for the home chemist. Thanks
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: billnotgatez on May 12, 2014, 12:25:29 AM
@Joeyups7
You have made several comments I would like to respond to

Acquiring Chemicals
Although, there are sources of chemicals on line, there are drawbacks you might not contemplate.
Some countries and states have strict laws that are arbitrarily enforced
a few examples
Too many pieces of glassware of a given type are illegal in some locations
Do you know when you will be put on a watch list

Although, there are
Quote
active chemists
that have made it difficult for the chemistry hobbyist, for the most part the
Quote
active chemists
are supportive. In fact many
Quote
active chemists
started out as hobby chemists. You can  not paint all
Quote
active chemists
with the same brush.

Of course, there are may "want to be" hobby chemist who create a bad reputation for the rest of us. I keep seeing the posts that state things like this
I just put some chemicals together will it kill me, I just wanted to see what happens.
Well, it is nice to be inquisitive, but can't you do a little research first. The Internet is full of stuff to include GOOGLE and WIKI. I know I try to post links that help you learn.

Then we get the person who comes on and says
I want to do chemistry, teach me all.
That is a tall task to do in a few paragraphs on a forum.
Why can't they make some effort to learn themselves, there is oodles of information one can tap into. If you do a search here you will find all sorts of books etc. that are available. I can not see us posting them every time someone is too lazy to search.

Changing laws
I wish I had that power
I am an avid supporter of citizen science, but I want everyone to be safe who participates.

So @Joeyups7, keep doing science, but be careful
The community that is not chemistry hobbyists is not always friendly and the chemicals are not always forgiving.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: Kemistry Kaiser on June 03, 2015, 01:21:04 PM
I think the main reason why people are staying away from home chemistry is because the active chemists drive them away. Most of what I see is experienced people continually bashing the inexperienced. If you can't write the equation why are you here? Or how much experience do you have? Go to google. It seems most chemists I meet are such sticklers and are a huge contributing factor.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that has noticed this! I've been lucky that several of my high school chemistry teachers/professors have been very animated and go above and beyond to help with chemistry, but I know a couple practicing chemists who are downright nasty to people that want to learn. I couldn't imagine a greater honor than passing my knowledge of chemistry on to another. I don't understand what makes them that way. You're especially right with the bashing. If we, as a society, want to see the rebirth of home chemistry as a significant quality of our culture we have to lead by example by being inviting to those that want to learn. Yes, it takes a lot of knowledge and hard work to become a professional chemist, and yes they have to do most of the learning on their own, but at least lead them in the right direction and mention the most important concepts to them. My good friend is a computer science major but he likes science in general and I'm always eager to include him in my home experiments just as he is eager to learn about chemistry.
Title: Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
Post by: SteveE on March 16, 2017, 06:29:52 AM
When I was a little kid back in the 60's, it was possible to purchase just about anything. I remember ordering kits for making fireworks when I was 12 or 13. Looking back, I wonder how I made it through that period of my life unscathed. I'm lucky to be alive imho.

Used to order from a catalog to purchase ingredients​ for different types of black powder including metallic magnesium powder. Was able to purchase  potassium dichromate for making green lava volcanoes. Different chemicals for growing my own crystals. Had lots of fun back then but I  would kick my kids ass if I found he was playing with the same chemicals as I was. Some of this stuff simply has no business being in a home environment.