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Topic: Phosphate and hybridization  (Read 32508 times)

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Offline Compaq

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Phosphate and hybridization
« on: March 30, 2011, 02:56:29 PM »
My query is concerning the hybridization of P in Phosphate (PO43-)

I'd like to draw the Lewis dot structure here, but I'm not sure if that's possible. Anyway, I've drawn that and other info on my white board, taken two shots they will follow.

Please look at the picture at the bottom before the one over it, they came in the wrong order^^


So, to summarise, is it correct to say that the P in phosphate is sp3d hybridized, the way I argued on the board?

It's just, last year me and an other chemistry student came across this problem, and we weren't able to explain how P could have so many e- in bonding. But, recently we had a lecture on hybridization and related stuff.

I just want to know, and now I think I do :)

-Compaq

Offline Schrödinger

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Re: Phosphate and hybridization
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2011, 07:17:52 AM »
Yes. What you've drawn on the board is correct. :)
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Offline tamim83

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Re: Phosphate and hybridization
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2011, 12:27:01 PM »
I am not so sure of this.  How are you forming the double bond?  Also, sp3d hybridization wouldn't give you the correct shape. 

I am thinking that phosphorus is sp3 hybridized.  A 3p electron is promoted to a 3d orbital, which can form the pi bond with a p orbital from oxygen. 

Offline Schrödinger

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Re: Phosphate and hybridization
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2011, 12:57:54 PM »
Oh s#*$!!  :o :o :o I am totally sorry!! What the HECK was I thinking?? It's obviously sp3. I thought you had drawn sp3. When I saw the d orbitals drawn separately, I thought you hadn't hybridized any of them!! Sorry, I was in a hurry, so didn't read the picture carefully...

Please excuse me for my stupidity!  :-\
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Offline tamim83

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Re: Phosphate and hybridization
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2011, 03:21:49 PM »
It's ok, these things happen  ;)

Offline Compaq

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Re: Phosphate and hybridization
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2011, 07:25:20 PM »
The double bond is one sigma bond and one pi bond, and I thought that only p orbitals can form pi bonds. P in phosphate still have 10 electrons, 8 of which are involved in sigma bonds, two of which involved in the pi bond.

If P is sp3 hybridized, then how do we explain that there are 10 electrons around P? There will be two electron that aren't accounted for? Or am I being stupid? The oxygen atom involved in the double bond is sp2 hybridized. One electron of one of the hybridized 2p orbital forms the pi bond with one of the hybridized 3p orbital of P.

Can someone please explain the whole hybridization process? Perhaps this is above a general chemistry course, but as I'm studying chemistry I want to know :)

-Compaq

Offline tamim83

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Re: Phosphate and hybridization
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2011, 08:52:11 AM »
Quote
and I thought that only p orbitals can form pi bonds

Not exactly, its just in general chemistry you always see p orbitals forming pi bonds.  A pi bond has electron density above and below the bonding axis and there is a nodal plane (an area where there is no electron density) through the bonding axis.  A pi bond can form between two p orbitals or between a p and a d orbital.  Try drawing a d orbital (not dz^2, but any of the others) next to a p orbital and you'll see that there will be some overlap.  It's just like being able to form a sigma bond between two s orbitals or an s and p orbital (or an s and d orbital or p and d orbital or two p orbitals for that matter).  Where the electron density is defines what type of bond. 

Quote
If P is sp3 hybridized, then how do we explain that there are 10 electrons around P? There will be two electron that aren't accounted for? Or am I being stupid? The oxygen atom involved in the double bond is sp2 hybridized. One electron of one of the hybridized 2p orbital forms the pi bond with one of the hybridized 3p orbital of P.

Can someone please explain the whole hybridization process? Perhaps this is above a general chemistry course, but as I'm studying chemistry I want to know

Hybridization is a way to explain the geometries of molecules, which come from experimental measurements.  For example, we know that CH4 is tetrahedral in shape from spectroscopy.  If you look at the orientation of C's atomic orbitals as they are, it doesn't work, all of the p orbitals are perpendicular.  But, if you take the 2s and 3 2p orbitals of carbon, combine them (using some advanced "magic" math), out comes 4 sp3 hybrid orbitals that give bond angles that are 109.5 degrees apart, which match the experimental bond angles of methane. 

So, if I look at phosphate, I see a molecule with 4 bonds (never mind one is a double bond). From VSEPR, I know that if an atom is bonded to 4 things and has no lone pairs, the bonds have a tetrahedral geometry, like CH4.  To explain this using hybridization, I can say that the 3s and 3p orbitals form 4 sp3 hybrid orbitals that would contain 1 electron each.  All of the sigma bonds are formed between these and a p orbital from oxygen.  So, 8 pairs of electrons around P so far. 

Now, to get the double bond.  We still have one valence electron left from P that can be "promoted" to a d orbital.  The d orbital can then form a pi bond with a p orbital from one of the oxygen atoms.  So now P has 10 electrons around it.  This is a way to explain how P "expands its octet" using its empty d orbitals. 

BTW, things like phosphate are really tricky to explain with hybridization, which is why most gen. chem professors steer clear of it.  But it can be done, and I hope this helps some more.   ;)

Offline Compaq

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Re: Phosphate and hybridization
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2011, 11:29:58 AM »
Thanks a lot!  :)

I'm having trouble visualizing the overlap between the d orbital and a p orbital :S

But how is the electron promoted to a d orbital? Does it get energy from somewhere?

Offline tamim83

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Re: Phosphate and hybridization
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2011, 02:58:03 PM »
Quote
But how is the electron promoted to a d orbital? Does it get energy from somewhere?

Ahh yes, this is why I put "promoted" in quotes.  This is where hybridization/valence bond theory gets a bit murky.  To give you a "hand wavy answer"; the orbitals are close in energy so it is "plausible" that the energetic cost of putting an electron in the d orbital for bonding is compensated for when you form (very strong) P=O bond. 


Offline Compaq

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Re: Phosphate and hybridization
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2011, 08:35:26 AM »
Well, the electron would have to be promoted before the P=O bond is made, which means that the electron is being energetically compensated after being promoted. Do you see where I'm going? The electron gets the energy necessary for being promoted after being promoted. If I'm thinking correctly here, that would go against the first law of thermodynamics: energy can't be created nor destroyed, only transformed from one state to another.

Or?

Offline tamim83

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Re: Phosphate and hybridization
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2011, 08:47:52 AM »
Yeah I do see what you mean, this is why I said this is murky.  However, the answer I gave you is along the lines of what I read in books, I am not about to "buy into it" though.  This is one of the limitations of valence bond theory; you can probably explain the bonding much better using molecular orbital theory, but it would be much more complicated to get the MOs by hand. 


Offline Compaq

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Re: Phosphate and hybridization
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2011, 07:01:54 PM »
Ahh, okay. This is a bit over "General chemistry" course :) I'm a chemistry student, though, and hopefully I'll be able to grasp this better later! It's sort of interesting. I need to find something that I want to specialise in also. I'm still in my first year, though. Plenty of time yet.

So what are you doing for a living? I mean, what education do you have?

Offline tamim83

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Re: Phosphate and hybridization
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2011, 08:32:41 AM »
I am a graduate student studying physical/theoretical chemistry.  I do my Ph. D defense in a week so I'll (hopefully) graduate this month.  After that, I am looking for a teaching job.

You still have time to pick a specialty, usually that doesn't happen until you go to graduate school  :)

Offline Borek

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Re: Phosphate and hybridization
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2011, 02:17:58 PM »
I do my Ph. D defense in a week so I'll (hopefully) graduate this month.

Wow! Fingers crossed. Keep us posted :)
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Offline Schrödinger

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Re: Phosphate and hybridization
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2011, 03:46:14 PM »
@tamim83 : Wow!!! All the very best. Please do PM me. I'd like to know more :)
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