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Author Topic: Does pressure inside Champagne bottle increase with bottle size?  (Read 1978 times)

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jman995x

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Does pressure inside Champagne bottle increase with bottle size?
« on: November 12, 2011, 05:39:31 AM »

Hello All,

It's been awhile since I've had to do these calculations, and this might be more of a physics question, but I thought I'd post it here as well and see the group's feedback.

A standard (750mL) bottle of champagne has roughly 6 atmospheres (~90psi) of pressure inside.

Does this pressure increase (or does it stay the same) if the bottle is much larger?

The reason I'm asking is that my wife (who is in the wine business) has become quite adept at sabring regular champagne bottles. However, she's going to sabre a 9L bottle tonight and I was just wondering if this (much) larger bottle has more pressure inside, or is it just a larger bottle with the same amount of pressure?

I have found some information here regarding CO2 (dissolved and gaseous):

http://www.wpi.edu/Academics/Depts/Chemistry/Courses/General/concep10.html

...example 10-9.

...but, as I mentioned previously, haven't done these kind of calculations in awhile and am a little rusty. I just want to make sure I have the right information to give her.

Any thoughts and the reasons behind them?

Thanks,

J.
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billnotgatez

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Re: Does pressure inside Champagne bottle increase with bottle size?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2011, 06:31:02 AM »

When you first bottle champagne is there any pressure inside?
What happens if too much pressure occurs inside a champagne bottle?

If 2 bottles of the same pressure and temperature have different sizes. is there a difference in the amount of gas?

Do you really think a glass bottle can expand in size by increasing pressure?

If you think about these you should have the answer.

hint - ideal gas law



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jman995x

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Re: Does pressure inside Champagne bottle increase with bottle size?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2011, 06:57:59 AM »

When you first bottle champagne is there any pressure inside?

A: Yes, as I stated, there's about 90psi in a standard champagne bottle?

What happens if too much pressure occurs inside a champagne bottle?

A: Obviously, past a certain psi, it will break.

If 2 bottles of the same pressure and temperature have different sizes. is there a difference in the amount of gas?

A: This is my question...unlike the problem that I previously posted a link to, the 9L bottle in question tonight is going to be a 7*C (constant),....so no fluctuation up or down in temperature.

Do you really think a glass bottle can expand in size by increasing pressure?

A: The short answer is obviously, No. I'm sure that the bottle might expand on some infinitesimal level before breaking, but that is the not question at hand.

I'm familiar with PV=nRT

I guess what I'm confused about is where they got this answer:

moles CO2 in gas = 0.00752

...towards the bottom of their calculation (of Example 10-9) in the link that I mentioned above:

http://www.wpi.edu/Academics/Depts/Chemistry/Courses/General/concep10.html

Once I find out how they got that, then the PV=nRT is simple....I just don't understand how they mathematically derived moles CO2 in gas = 0.00752.

If I just blindly use their 0.00752 conclusion in the PV=nRT calculation:

PCO2 = nRT/V = (0.00752)(0.08206)(280)/9L = 0.019 atm (which is ~ 0.2792psi)....which is obviously not right.

So, what am I not seeing here?


« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 07:16:07 AM by jman995x »
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Arkcon

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Re: Does pressure inside Champagne bottle increase with bottle size?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2011, 08:07:24 AM »

I'm afraid you may be over thinking this particular application.  They pump-in a sufficient quantity of CO2 to give a solution with an over the liquid PSI of 90 in 750 ml.  There's more gas in the larger bottle, but it's kept at the same pressure -- for safety reasons, so the stopper will still hold, so the wine is bubbly and not foamy, etc.  I'm sure they use a pressure gauge on the filling system, or a recipe built up on trial and error, because real gases deviate from the ideal gas law, and the CO2 solution, in wine just adds more variables.
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fledarmus

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Re: Does pressure inside Champagne bottle increase with bottle size?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2011, 11:28:00 AM »

As Arkcon said, if there is any quality control in the champagne bottling process, the pressure inside all the bottles should be the same. Otherwise, different size bottles would taste different when you open them.

I think your bigger issue would be the different size and possibly thickness of the glass, which may set up different stresses in the neck. I would definitely want at least one practice shot at something like this before doing it in public!
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billnotgatez

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Re: Does pressure inside Champagne bottle increase with bottle size?
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2011, 05:39:35 PM »

I guess my questions were to cryptic and my apologies for delayed posting.

In any case I was thinking about the traditional method of causing the bubbly in champagne which was to bottle it at ambient pressure (1 ATM) and let the yeast produce the carbon dioxide and increased pressure (6 ATM). Thinking about this directly pertained to the original posts question. I guess we can assume that the bottle and/or cork strength is the important part not it's size.

Below is from WIKI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_production

Quote
There are four main methods of sparkling wine production. The first is simple injection of carbon dioxide (CO2), the process used in soft drinks, but this produces big bubbles that dissipate quickly in the glass. The second is the Metodo Italiano – Charmat process, in which the wine undergoes a secondary fermentation in bulk tanks, and is bottled under pressure. This method is used for Prosecco and Asti in particular, and produces smaller, longer-lasting bubbles. This is now used widely around the world to produce light, delicate sparkling wines. The third method is the traditional method or méthode champenoise.[a] With this method the effervescence for more complex wines are produced by secondary fermentation in the bottle. As the name suggests, this is used for the production of Champagne and other quality sparkling wines, but is slightly more expensive than the Charmat process. The fourth method is the "transfer method". This method will take the cuvée to bottle for secondary fermentation, which allows for the additional complexity, but then will transfer the wine out of the individual bottles into a larger tank after it has spent the desired amount of time on yeast.[1]
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Arkcon

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Re: Does pressure inside Champagne bottle increase with bottle size?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2011, 02:20:53 AM »

If they're producing natural carbonation, then they're likely following a recipe, like a cooking recipe, so pressure may deviate.  But if its far off, the wine would be ruined, like I said, who wants foamy, over-carbonated champagne.  The OP is worried about over-carbonation of larger bottles.  And I think, for various reasons, that just won't be allowed to happen.  Maybe they even under-carbonate, if you've purchased a large bottle, the whole novelty may be in the presentation, and not in champagne quality.
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billnotgatez

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Re: Does pressure inside Champagne bottle increase with bottle size?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2011, 05:08:32 AM »

Quote
But if its far off, the wine would be ruined, like I said, who wants foamy, over-carbonated champagne.

From past experiences with natural beer brewing, too high s pressure caused the bottle to burst or the top to pop, so we had know way of knowing if it effected the final taste or foaminess.
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