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Author Topic: where does the flame created by H2O come from ?  (Read 2805 times)

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pondering

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where does the flame created by H2O come from ?
« on: November 18, 2011, 08:10:54 PM »

 I have found , in my research that H2O can produces a flame

 what I'm wondering is , what is this flame burning ?

 what is the essence of the fuel or what is the fuel its self ?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 08:23:12 PM by pondering »
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Jeremy

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Re: where does the flame created by H2O come from ?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2011, 08:59:49 PM »

Water will only burn in fluorine.
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pondering

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Re: where does the flame created by H2O come from ?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2011, 09:13:52 PM »

Water will only burn in fluorine.

 so water , on its own will not burn
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Jeremy

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Re: where does the flame created by H2O come from ?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2011, 09:16:43 PM »

Well it won't burn in oxygen no, because it's already burnt.

Was there oil in the water or something?
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pondering

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Re: where does the flame created by H2O come from ?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2011, 09:26:14 PM »

Well it won't burn in oxygen no, because it's already burnt.

Was there oil in the water or something?

 I saw it once on TV , this was awhile ago , and the water actually had a visable flame

 but I want to back up a bit here

  this quote below, is from another site , in which we were discussing why H and O become a liquid a room temp. , while both seperately must be brought down to extremely low temps. -270 to -256C to become liquid

Quote
The H2 and O2 flame is extremely hot. The result is before H2O can form, Hot and reactive fragments will form called radicals. These are very reactive and will attack more O2 and H2. As everything moves down an energy hill, in terms of potential energy, we finally get H2O which is at the bottom of the energy well.
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UG

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Re: where does the flame created by H2O come from ?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2011, 09:31:59 PM »

It was probably a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen burning, search it up on youtube  :D
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pondering

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Re: where does the flame created by H2O come from ?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2011, 09:35:59 PM »

It was probably a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen burning, search it up on youtube  :D

 but your response to the rest of my last post though
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Jeremy

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Re: where does the flame created by H2O come from ?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2011, 09:43:46 PM »

Hydrogen will burn in oxygen to produce water. Water won't burn in oxygen; water is burnt hydrogen.
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UG

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Re: where does the flame created by H2O come from ?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2011, 09:46:02 PM »

I think what you saw on TV could be a number of things. There could be some flammable gas above the water's surface or as Jeremy mentioned, there could be oil or some flammable liquid. Whatever it is, its very unlikely to be the actual water that is burning.
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pondering

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Re: where does the flame created by H2O come from ?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2011, 10:01:08 PM »

Hydrogen will burn in oxygen to produce water. Water won't burn in oxygen; water is burnt hydrogen.

 what of hydrogen is burning , in oxygen , to produce water though ?
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Jeremy

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Re: where does the flame created by H2O come from ?
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2011, 10:15:04 PM »

Hydrogen will burn in oxygen to produce water. Water won't burn in oxygen; water is burnt hydrogen.

 what of hydrogen is burning , in oxygen , to produce water though ?

I don't really understand what you're asking.
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pondering

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Re: where does the flame created by H2O come from ?
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2011, 03:00:40 AM »

Hydrogen will burn in oxygen to produce water. Water won't burn in oxygen; water is burnt hydrogen.

 what of hydrogen is burning , in oxygen , to produce water though ?



Quote
I don't really understand what you're asking.

 well if water is burn't hydrogen, that implies that something of or from hydrogen is being burned or used as fuel

 or another way to put it perhaps , think of water as somewhat of an engine

 your fuel is hydrogen , mix in some air , O and the out come is a liquid we call water , fine

 so water is something like exhaust

 so we know HOW it happens , but we actually don't really know WHAT this exhaust is in detail

 if you still don't understand me I'll try again later

 going to work

 later
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fledarmus

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Re: where does the flame created by H2O come from ?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2011, 02:52:04 AM »

"Burning" in the common vernacular, is simply reaction with oxygen.

Hydrogen reacts with oxygen to form water. It has a reasonably high ignition temperature that typically requires at least a spark to ignite, but it gives off a lot of energy when it burns.

H2 + O2 --->  H2O

The "exhaust" is the gas that comes off from the burning process. Assuming that the hydrogen was being burned in a car engine, that exhaust would contain water from the reaction, plus all of the excess atmospheric gases that went into the engine, plus any atmospheric gases that were formed due to the high temperature of the engine (typically reactions of nitrogen with oxygen).

Normally our car engines are fueled with gasoline, which is a mixture of hydrocarbons (hydrocarbons are compounds which contain only hydrogen and carbon atoms). These hydrocarbons also react with oxygen - the carbon reacts with oxygen to form carbon dioxide (CO2) and the water reacts with oxygen to from water.

CxHy ---> CO2 + H2O

The exhaust contains carbon dioxide and water, plus all of the excess atmospheric gases that went into the engine, plus any atmospheric gases that were formed due to the high temperature of the engine (again, typically reactions of nitrogen with oxygen). However, if there isn't enough oxygen to completely convert all of the carbon to carbon dioxide, you will also get some carbon monoxide formed. Also, since the gasoline is coming from crude oil and is not a pure gas the way hydrogen is, there is frequently also at least a small amount of sulfur present which will burn to form sulfur dioxide.

We actually do know what the exhaust in both cases is, in great detail under a wide variety of possible conditions.
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Arkcon

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Re: where does the flame created by H2O come from ?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2011, 03:46:47 AM »

Well, we seem to have clarified one of the points of your post.  The nature of fuel, be it hydrogen, or hydrocarbon and the oxidizer, oxygen gas in the easiest scenario, and exhaust, either water or carbon dioxide and water.  What you seem to be asking here:


  this quote below, is from another site , in which we were discussing why H and O become a liquid a room temp. , while both seperately must be brought down to extremely low temps. -270 to -256C to become liquid

Quote
The H2 and O2 flame is extremely hot. The result is before H2O can form, Hot and reactive fragments will form called radicals. These are very reactive and will attack more O2 and H2. As everything moves down an energy hill, in terms of potential energy, we finally get H2O which is at the bottom of the energy well.


... and elsewhere in this thread is, What is fire?  or What is flame?  This a a little tougher question to answer, and yes, flame does propagate through the fuel-oxidizer mix via a free radical mechanism.  Maybe you should start with some Wikipedia articles, and see if you gain some insight, then, you can ask more specific questions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire#Flame
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_radical

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