Chemical Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Sponsored links

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Fatty acid derivatives  (Read 2861 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

zeen

  • New Member
  • **
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
Fatty acid derivatives
« on: January 16, 2012, 10:08:28 PM »

I would be grateful if someone can detect what would be a chemical which is sodium/potassium salt of a blend of this fatty acids:

C11:0 -- 21,45%
C12:0 --  2,75%
C14:0 --  1,56%
C16:0 -- 17,19%
C16:1 --  2,68%
C18:0 -- 22,22%
C18:1 -- 18,77%
C18:2 --  2,16%
C22:0 --  3,84%
C24:0 --  4,45%

It is a water solution with 30% of solids. Lightly yellow colored.
It also has:
Sodium (mg/kg Na) 1825,1
Potassium (mg/kg K) 42,448,7
I hope to get some reply.
Best regards
Logged

Arkcon

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Mole Snacks: +354/-113
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5049
Re: Fatty acid derivatives
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2012, 01:14:38 AM »

Most likely, it is a blend of the sodium and or potassium salts of those specific fatty acids.  Someone may have created a name for this blend, but not likely.  It's hard to understand what you're asking -- you know its made of many things, you have some idea of its composition, and you expect a "chemical name", as if there were only one thing.  I dunno why you'd ask something like that.
Logged
That all depends on how reasonable we're all willing to be.  I just want my friends back, except for Cartman, you can keep him.

zeen

  • New Member
  • **
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
Re: Fatty acid derivatives
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2012, 03:15:03 AM »

Hm..I thought it would be a strange question..
However, this is a product i would like to ..let's say copy ;)
I was thinking (because of solubility)...maybe it is potassium laurate or oleate..or..etc..I'm not sure.
Is it possible that this material could be from some industry(paper, textile, oil) as a by-product?
This material is very soluble in water.
Also..it is cheap.

Best regards
Logged

fledarmus

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Mole Snacks: +198/-28
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1679
Re: Fatty acid derivatives
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2012, 03:33:08 AM »

laureate and oleate both refer to specific fatty acids. Lauric acid would be your C12:0 acid, oleic acid is probably your C18:1 acid.

The blend is probably coming from the saponification of a specific type of fat. You would need to research (or find somebody that has researched) exactly what blend of fatty acids comes from saponifying any particular fat or oil. Using google scholar or scifinder and typing in "lauric myristic palmitic stearic behenic lignoceric" (these are the 12, 14, 16, 18, 22, and 24 saturated fatty acids) might get you papers where researchers have reported the proportions of various fatty acids in the fats they are studying.

I don't know what the composition of bacon fat is, but it is possible that someone has used a potassium base to saponify it. The sodium might be from the sodium nitrites used to preserve the bacon in the first place.
Logged

steven

  • New Member
  • **
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-3
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
Re: Fatty acid derivatives
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2012, 09:42:05 AM »

1/ Extract the fat from water solution by using diethyl ether.
2/ Evaporate diethyl ether under nitrogen.
3/ Fat will be derivatized to fatty acids methyl ester (FAME) by using Boron Trifluoride (BF3) in Methanol (14%)
4/ After derivatization, using Gas chromatography for analysis.


Regards,
Steven
www.testing-laboratory.com
Logged

zeen

  • New Member
  • **
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
Re: Fatty acid derivatives
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2012, 11:48:01 AM »

I'm very grateful for your answers.
However, my knowledge of chemistry is quite hm..limited ;)
That is the reason why I'm asking for help.
I know the ways how to determinate composition, but I'm not sure what is the cheapest way to produce this material in hundreds of metric tons. That is the reason I think there is a chance that it could be some by-product from industry.
A coleague of mine told me that it is the chance that C11 and C24 could lead to some paper pulping industry.
What is your opinion about it?
Logged

fledarmus

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Mole Snacks: +198/-28
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1679
Re: Fatty acid derivatives
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2012, 03:28:26 PM »

That's why I suggested you type those particular fatty acids into google scholar and search. The fatty acid content of many fats and waxes have been analyzed. Doing the search I suggested will point you to papers which include tables similar to this one, then you just need to go through the various tables until you find one that matches your analysis.

There is probably a collection someplace that has a table giving the fatty acid content of a wide variety of fats, but I haven't found one yet.

Logged

zeen

  • New Member
  • **
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
Re: Fatty acid derivatives
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2012, 08:50:11 PM »

I already tried almost everything that dropped on my mind...that's the reason I'm asking for help.
When I'm doing search on C11:0(in this blend there is 21,5% of it) informations are very limited..almost none.
Does someone have any experience in industry(source) with this type of fatty acid?
Logged

Arkcon

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Mole Snacks: +354/-113
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5049
Re: Fatty acid derivatives
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2012, 02:48:13 AM »

I'm very grateful for your answers.
However, my knowledge of chemistry is quite hm..limited ;)
That is the reason why I'm asking for help.
I know the ways how to determinate composition, but I'm not sure what is the cheapest way to produce this material in hundreds of metric tons. That is the reason I think there is a chance that it could be some by-product from industry.
A coleague of mine told me that it is the chance that C11 and C24 could lead to some paper pulping industry.
What is your opinion about it?

This seems unlikely to me that the source is pulp or petroleum.  What everyone else has said, that the fatty acid mixture is from an animal or vegetable fat source is more likely.  Your identifier, C11 or C24 just means a chain of that many carbons, and that could come from any organic source.  It doesn't specify that that the carbon chain ends in a acid group reactive to the hydroxide to form the sodium or potassium salt of a fatty acid, commonly referred to as a soap.  But a soap is definitely what you have.

Likewise, your other identifiers here:
C18:0 -- 22,22%
C18:1 -- 18,77%
C18:2 --  2,16%
Simply means an 18 carbon chain, with a certain number of unsaturations.  But we give a different technical name to every carbon chain depending on where the unsaturations are.  You have no such information.  Generally, living things produce only certain specific types of unsaturations, depending on their species and its needs.  That way, the distributions will give you a hint to a source of these fats.

Its also possible that this stuff is a blend of several diverse fats and oil sources.  So you may never find "the" source, because there isn't one.  Just a mix of several common sources meant to give this soap mix a certain property -- a viscosity, a gelling ability, a cleaning ability, cheapness of cost of raw materials, manufacturing abilities, etc.  This may even be for coating a surface, or a lubricant.

Also, you don't really know the composition.  There is no harm in reporting a "typical" composition, and then deviating from it, either slightly, or significantly.  Its wrong to do that with food, or pharmaceuticals, but not soap or industrial chemicals.  that is, in some way, how companies defend themselves from copycats.  The patent may describe the composition, but production may no longer be done according to patent, the real production method may be just trade secret.  In fact, since its been analyzed to two decimal place, its likely not that composition, unless you've recently analyzed it according to the method described by steven:

Here's a thought -- call the manufacturer and ask them what the source is.  They may not tell you.  But they might.  They might first ask that you promise not to disclose the info to a third party, or make it yourself.  But they might not care, after all, they did give you, and everyone else, the composition.  They may not be worried that you can make it your self -- once you know the source of fats, then what: you will have to buy it yourself, in metric ton quantities, react it yourself in metric ton quantities, and warehouse reactants and products.  They may know for certain that you may not be able to do that cheaply enough to be a competition for the company.  And if you are able to make it cheaper to the same standard ... they may ask you to do it for them.
Logged
That all depends on how reasonable we're all willing to be.  I just want my friends back, except for Cartman, you can keep him.

zeen

  • New Member
  • **
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
Re: Fatty acid derivatives
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2012, 04:30:54 AM »

Thanks again for such an informative answer!
However, colleague of mine works in laboratory and she managed to get the compositon for me.
For me it's normal that manufacturer of this aqueous solution won't tell me composition. They just said that it is fatty acid derivative.
By the way..this product is used as admixture in construction.
Do you maybe know some other source where it would be possible to get some fatty acid derivatives, which are cheap to buy, and have good solubility properties (cca. 30% of solids).
It doesn't need to be the same in composition...just simmilar...and again, cheap ;)
Best regards
Logged

Furanone

  • Chemist
  • Regular Member
  • *
  • Mole Snacks: +4/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 61
Re: Fatty acid derivatives
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2012, 11:57:38 AM »

Are you sure that the C11:0 is not C10:0 or even C12:0 with the one you have listed as C12:0 actually being C12:1?

Odd numbered fatty acids are incredibly rare in nature only in sizable quantities in milk due to the bacterial action in ruminants stomachs. Since it is the only odd numbered fatty acid in your list and also it being 22% it seems very unlikely it is C11:0.
Logged
"The true worth of an experimenter consists in pursuing not only what he seeks in his experiment, but also what he did not seek."

--Sir William Bragg (1862 - 1942)
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Mitch Andre Garcia's Chemical Forums 2003-Present.

Page created in 0.099 seconds with 24 queries.