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Topic: Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition  (Read 15569 times)

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Offline billnotgatez

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Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition
« on: February 25, 2006, 03:16:00 PM »
I would use at least three fields to grow the crops. The fields could be as small as 1 meter square. The first field crop would be rapeseed or castor bean. The second field would have sugar beet. The third field would have soy bean. Field one crops would be used to make the oil for bio-diesel. Field crops two would be used to create the sugar for ethanol production, which is a reactant in the bio-diesel creation reaction. Field three crops would be tilled back in to provide nutrients to the soil. The crops would be rotated among the fields. The vegetable oil and alcohol created would be used in the cooking process to create the bio-diesel as well as the reactants. Any excess to the processing would be the fuel used for other purposes. To determine how efficient the process was we would count the final excess bio-diesel per field size of the three fields. Some points to ponder are below.

The choice of rapeseed or castor bean relies on how much Monsanto the seed maker is involved. They are very proprietary and should be avoided. Also the castor been has some poisonous effects and that is why in history it’s oil was used as a purgative.

Ethanol is chosen over methanol because it is easier to naturally produce. Ethanol might be used as thinner for the bio-diesel.

Using products grown and made in the process to run the process lets us determine the efficiency of the whole system. Otherwise, we would have to factor in the cost of items used in making the final product.

The cost of procuring sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide should be addressed. Should we make our own from salt or another cheap substance? What cheap sources for potassium are there? Should we use a solar panel for electrolysis of salt water and what would we then use the chlorine?

Any item not used up in the process would not be part of the cost of the operation. These would only be counted as fixed startup cost and not efficiency costs, since they can be reused over and over.

Comments?

See previous post on bio-diesel in this forum for links on this topic.
http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?board=9;action=display;threadid=4064
http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?board=9;action=display;threadid=5177



« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 04:08:06 PM by billnotgatez »

Offline joeflsts

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Re:Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2006, 04:01:10 PM »
I find this whole process fascinating.  The uses of biodiesel are interesting.  Considering your yield you could potentially fuel your car, heat your home, and heat water.  It may be cheaper in the long run to purhase your hydroxide in bulk.

Joe

Offline billnotgatez

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Re:Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2006, 04:16:00 PM »
If you have to use 1000 acres of land to give 1 family its energy needs, would it be worth it. How many more people would starve because the cost of food would go up due to the land being used for energy needs? Even though this process may be carbon dioxide neutral, would other pollutants be produced in excess? An example of that is aquaculture food production. This is an interesting process but impacts must be determined. An efficiency of production analysis would be useful. Just doing it on paper will not sort out all the issues and costs.

Offline constant thinker

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Re:Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2006, 10:03:46 PM »
I love this proposition. It sounds efficient (relatively speaking that is). I'm glad that you mentioned using byproducts (I'm assuming that's what you mean by excess in proceessing). When you distill the ethanol in the end you'd be left with a "mash". This would everything that was left behind. If you dried that out you could use that for fuel in the stills. Also any plant parts not used can be used in the still and in other areas requireing heating. I think depending on where you are solar power or wind power may be a great idea. I think your whole "expirement", which is more of a factory plan to me, is a great idea.

What are castor beans used for? The only use I know of it is an illegal product. I think it's illegal atleast.

P.S. I gave you a snack because I love your idea. Helping to get the U.S. and world for that matter of its oil dependency. Hydrogen is taking awhile to come into the mass market.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 10:05:41 PM by constant thinker »
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Offline joeflsts

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Re:Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2006, 10:53:55 AM »
Castor beans could be used as the oil source.  Another, more common product is rapeseed.  Most people think of rapeseed oil as canola oil.

Joe

Offline limpet chicken

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Re:Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2006, 04:59:13 PM »
I don't think castor beans are suitable really, they do contain lots of oil, but the prescense of the toxalbumen ricin, makes handling fairly difficult, and of course, I wouldn't like to be the poor sucker left to deal with all that waste (just watch out for dodgy looking characters in turbans raiding the bins at night ;D)

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Offline billnotgatez

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Re:Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2006, 08:51:23 PM »
This is from my memory and not recently looked up.

The Castor bean oil was used extensively for lubrication in the past. Newer sources of lubricating oil out competed it. When it was used in the past, the toxicity issue was dealt with sufficiently.

My understanding is that it also was made into a medicinal purgative liquid.

----------
This is some pondering points.

The Castor bean toxic compounds may be a natural pesticide.

Would tilling back the remains of the plant after the oil is removed cause a problem?

Can the toxic compounds be degraded with new chemical processes not know in the past?

Can we breed out the toxic gene in the Castor bean?

Other than a slight increase in oil content is there another reason to use the Castor bean rather than the Rapeseed? For instance, is the Rapeseed more susceptible to disease?



Offline constant thinker

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Re:Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2006, 09:03:00 PM »
Can we breed out the toxic gene in the Castor bean?

Genetic Engineering could be used. I've honestly never heard of genetically engineering a gene out of a plant though. Maybe a gene that can negate the toxicgene.?

I suppose maybe if some plants produce only a little or none of the ricin you could breed out the gene or atleast plants that produce neglible amounts of ricin.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2006, 09:05:40 PM by constant thinker »
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' " -Ronald Reagan

"I'm for anything that gets you through the night, be it prayer, tranquilizers, or a bottle of Jack Daniels." -Frank Sinatra

Offline billnotgatez

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Re:Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2006, 04:06:36 AM »
We have seen issues with genetic engineering creating plant products that humans have bad reactions to. But more importantly, once you have a seed or bean that is genetically engineered, it is the property of that company. If some seed or bean is naturally mutated and is bred to create seed and anyone can do this breeding process, then the restrictions on using the naturally bred seed / bean are not quite so strict.

Offline Yggdrasil

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Re:Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2006, 04:37:48 AM »
Genetic Engineering could be used. I've honestly never heard of genetically engineering a gene out of a plant though. Maybe a gene that can negate the toxicgene.?

I suppose maybe if some plants produce only a little or none of the ricin you could breed out the gene or atleast plants that produce neglible amounts of ricin.

You are correct in that it is generally easier to insert genetic material into a plant than to remove genetic material.  However, by inserting a gene encoding the antisense strand of a mRNA can knockdown the expression of the correcponding protein through a phenomenon known as RNA interference (RNAi).  However, the RNAi approach would not be suitable for ricin because it is extremely toxic and one molecule is enough to cause cell death.  Therefore, methods which do not completely eliminate expression of the ricin toxins (such as RNAi or selective breeding) would not be able to make the castor beans safer.  One be best off trying to physically remove or disrupt the gene through other methods, for example by randomly inserting a junk sequence of DNA into the castor bean genome and screening for mutants which have the junk DNA disrupting the ricin gene or ricin gene's promoter.

Offline billnotgatez

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Re:Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2006, 03:43:56 AM »
What natural process would you use to make methanol? Is it easier to naturally make methanol or ethanol?


Offline constant thinker

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Re:Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2006, 01:25:15 PM »
Methanol is referred to as wood alcohol sometimes. Now adays they use methane to produce methanol. It is a byproduct during the distillation of wood though, hence why they call it wood alcohol sometimes. That is how it's produced naturally. Ethanol though is very easily made naturally. Anyone with sugar, yeast, and water can make it in their own home (although it smells bad). I'm sure you know there are many other ways to  to make ethanol besides just using regular sugar.

If you want to read a little more about methanol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 01:25:41 PM by constant thinker »
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"I'm for anything that gets you through the night, be it prayer, tranquilizers, or a bottle of Jack Daniels." -Frank Sinatra

Offline billnotgatez

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Re:Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2006, 06:12:03 PM »
I did not see a natural method of producing methanol on the page you posted. Do we put a hunk of wood in the still and get methanol out.

Offline constant thinker

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Re:Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2006, 01:30:03 PM »
Yea, I know it doesn't really tell you how to get it naturally.

From my random readings (other than wikipedia), you can take grape vine, the vine not the grape, and crush/grind it up. Then put that in warm water to soak and add yeast. That supposedly yields methanol. As to how much, I'm not sure. I have never tried this method.
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' " -Ronald Reagan

"I'm for anything that gets you through the night, be it prayer, tranquilizers, or a bottle of Jack Daniels." -Frank Sinatra

Offline billnotgatez

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Re:Bio-diesel Experiment Proposition
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2006, 07:02:19 PM »
I thought that was the method to make ethanol.

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