Chemical Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Sponsored links

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Abrasiveness of Sodium Bicarbonate  (Read 6622 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

DeGeN-

  • Guest
Abrasiveness of Sodium Bicarbonate
« on: November 04, 2014, 02:58:21 PM »

This doesn't make sense to me people keep saying that Baking soda is very abrasive to tooth enamel and causes permanent damage to the enamel. Yet I find contradictory evidence where Baking soda has a hardness of 2.5 and enamel of 5. Now this makes zero sense if it has a hardness of 2.5 then there's no way for it to scratch off enamel with that hardness assuming that I understand the hardness scale correctly. Not to mention the solubility of enamel in relation to water should by default make it even less abrasive to the enamel. The RDA rating of  baking soda is 7 far less then any toothpaste which use types of silica.I hear people say they have used baking soda for 70 years and have never had a problem. So really this simply doesn't add up ...Is this a myth or...2.5>5? How? OK enlighten  me Chemists..
Logged

billnotgatez

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Mole Snacks: +203/-54
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3556
Re: Abrasiveness of Sodium Bicarbonate
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2014, 03:57:18 PM »

Quote
people keep saying that Baking soda is very abrasive to tooth enamel and causes permanent damage to the enamel.

Do you have a link from a reputable source?
Logged

DeGeN-

  • Guest
Re: Abrasiveness of Sodium Bicarbonate
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2014, 04:27:09 PM »

That's besides the question. Most dentists will lean toward the position that sodium bicarbonate is an abrasive to tooth enamel.Also I don't know your definition of a reputable source sense that is very relative. Finally Sources should have no relevance in relation to the so-called accepted "truth" that baking soda is abrasive to tooth enamel because it's generally agreed upon opinion. I want to know the definitive answer Via From the facts. FACT hardness Sodium Bicarbonate 2.5 Enamel 5 .The RDA of baking soda on a scale of 0 - 200 is 7. Baking soda Is very soluble in water .None of these facts match up with this general consensus that you can read from any corporate website about baking soda pro's and cons. A 2.5 hardness should not be able to scratch the surface of the enamel..Then Again I could be wrong. Here are some Links But I see no point.http://www.md-health.com/Brushing-Teeth-With-Baking-Soda.htmlhttp:  //www.colgate.com/app/CP/US/EN/OC/Information/Articles/ColgateNewandNow/Personal/2013/January/article/SW-281474979043022.cvsp

http://www.newhealthguide.org/Brushing-Teeth-With-Baking-Soda.html
http://www.drpeterhazim.com/can-baking-soda-be-used-as-tooth-paste/
Logged

Dan

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Mole Snacks: +465/-72
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 4717
  • Organic Chemist
    • My research
Re: Abrasiveness of Sodium Bicarbonate
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2014, 09:14:41 PM »

A 2.5 hardness should not be able to scratch the surface of the enamel..Then Again I could be wrong.

I don't think it's quite so clear cut. If the hardness of enamel is 5, that doesn't mean that it is completely unscathed by anything with a hardness <5, it just means that if you rub a material with hardness <5 against your teeth, your teeth will suffer less damage than the material. At least that wold be my initial interpretation.

Looking at some values here, I see that tooth enamel (5) is harder than iron and steel (~4). Despite that, I would not fancy brushing my teeth with steel wool. I would expect damage.

Likewise, glass is listed as harder than iron, but I'm confident that I could scratch a window with an nail. I think predicting whether one material can damage another is more complicated than comparing hardness values, you need to consider the shape as well - sharper objects apply more pressure.

I could just be "accepted wisdom" without any experimental evidence to back it up, but I think it is plausible that long term brushing with bicarb damages tooth enamel despite their relative hardness.
Logged
My research: Google Scholar and Researchgate

DeGeN-

  • Guest
Re: Abrasiveness of Sodium Bicarbonate
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2014, 11:09:17 AM »

Yes I clearly misunderstood how hardness works. It has to do with the resistance of damnage from another object but it does not necessarily make it immune to being scatched. Your analogy for steel is rather illogical sense the hardness scale only measures  naturally occuring substances so Im not sure that analogy applies sense it is an industrial product.  Again Lets refrain from speculation. In the realms of fact I don't feel as if you have fully answered my question.  So obviously baking soda in it's powder form can still scatch enamel even though it is in a powder substance but on a minimal level.  This does not take into account the solubility of the baking soda and how it reacts with water and the breaking of the powder into finer particles.So My question still is . How does an aqueaos solution of baking soda fare with tooth enamel. My gut tells me it has to do with the  way in which you use your toothbrush but a more in  depth explanation is appreciated.
Logged

Dan

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Mole Snacks: +465/-72
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 4717
  • Organic Chemist
    • My research
Re: Abrasiveness of Sodium Bicarbonate
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2014, 11:34:53 AM »

Quote
Your analogy for steel is rather illogical sense the hardness scale only measures  naturally occuring substances

Nonsense. The Mohs scale of mineral hardness, which I posted a link to and based my figures on, does include both steel (listed at 4-4.5) and tooth enamel (listed at 5). Did you actually bother checking the link?

How does an aqueaos solution of baking soda fare with tooth enamel.

Probably harmless. Sodium bicarbonate is not very water soluble (in comparison to a lot of sodium salts) - a saturated solution at room temp is only about 1 M. I doubt that even a saturated solution would cause significant damage (though it would probably taste terrible). I think the problem for your teeth is abrasion, not corrosion.
Logged
My research: Google Scholar and Researchgate

DeGeN-

  • Guest
Re: Abrasiveness of Sodium Bicarbonate
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2014, 12:49:49 PM »

When I was talking about steel I was referring to steel wool which is an industrial product and does not accurately portray steel wool in relation to another substance sense were talking about solid  steel hence naturally occurring substance. When I was talking about an aqueous solution of baking soda I mean wetting the toothbrush to water which would form a semi  aqueous solution I think Im using the wrong term for "aqueous solution". Anyways common sense seems to indicate that it would make it less abrasive sense it is somewhat soluble thus mitigating it's already dismal abrasive effect even further or Am I wrong? I mean my fingernails are a 2.5 hardness and It is very difficult to scats steel with my fingernails.... Im thinking this is a myth that baking soda ruins your teeth . Baking soda is far less abrasive then most of comercial toothpastes if you check the Relative dentin abrasion scale which rates to about 7. Dentin is even softer than enamel an they were using a dry form of baking soda which would be more abrasive than baking soda drenched in water. So my conclusion is that baking soda is abrasive but it is completely unimportant  sense the damage would be minimal..this also doesn't take into account the brushing pressure and technique used..And frequency. Would anyone agree that this baking soda abrasiveness is a myth? It just doesn't add up. Feel free to correct me.
Logged

Dan

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Mole Snacks: +465/-72
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 4717
  • Organic Chemist
    • My research
Re: Abrasiveness of Sodium Bicarbonate
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2014, 09:15:56 PM »

When I was talking about steel I was referring to steel wool which is an industrial product and does not accurately portray steel wool in relation to another substance sense were talking about solid  steel hence naturally occurring substance.

I don't understand your point here. Steel is not naturally occurring in any form.

Quote
When I was talking about an aqueous solution of baking soda I mean wetting the toothbrush to water which would form a semi  aqueous solution I think Im using the wrong term for "aqueous solution".

OK, you mean a slurry.

Quote
Anyways common sense seems to indicate that it would make it less abrasive sense it is somewhat soluble thus mitigating it's already dismal abrasive effect even further or Am I wrong?

Possibly, I'm not sure.

Quote
Baking soda is far less abrasive then most of comercial toothpastes if you check the Relative dentin abrasion scale which rates to about 7.

Now we are getting somewhere, it would have been useful to define this scale from the outset.

Looking here: http://satyen.com/toothpastes.shtml

It would seem that it is harmless, or at least less damaging than commercial toothpaste.

That site (and several others which show the same data) do not provide proper references - while they give the name of the company/author of the studies, there is not enough information about the source to find the original reports. This makes the reliability of the data questionable. Believing everything you read on the Internet is not a good idea.

If that data is genuine, it supports your hypothesis that tooth damage from baking soda abrasiveness is a myth.

See if you can find the source of the data and any other studies relating to the issue. Articles that simply say "studies show that...." with no reference can be disregarded - if the author of the article cannot provide a full reference to the source document, then they have probably just copied it from another unreliable article on the Internet without checking whether or not the data is genuine.
Logged
My research: Google Scholar and Researchgate

JustAnotherSkeptic

  • Guest
Re: Abrasiveness of Sodium Bicarbonate
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2017, 06:41:59 AM »

This topic has become very meaningful to me very recently. I hope it's still worth talking about. I think it's a very complex topic and one that really needs to be understood.

I've been going to my current dentist for the past 15+ years. I have periodontal disease so my teeth aren't in the greatest of health. None the less, I had been keeping the periodontal disease in check for several years. I've been brushing with baking soda for about 15 years as well.

During my last 2 regularly scheduled dental cleanings I was "educated" by 2 different hygienists about how "abrasive" baking soda is and that I should switch to something less abrasive. So, I stopped using baking soda all together and began brushing with just a wet toothbrush. Not the smartest move in retrospect.

2 dental cleanings later the dental hygienist measured the pockets in my gums caused by my periodontal disease. They had gone from 3's to 7's and 9's. In other words, I had no longer been maintaining the pocket depths with my new dental hygiene program. What changed? Not my diet, only 1 thing. I had stopped using baking soda to brush my teeth.

After dropping an ungodly amount of money to have a full-mouth sub-gingival scaling and root planing, I'm now back to brushing with baking soda again. 3x a day. I have to be more diligent than I ever was to keep from losing what I have left.

What's to be learned from my stupidity? Examining statements that might be 100% true at face value in isolation is a very dangerous thing to be doing. And that's what I did.
While baking soda may be somewhat abrasive on the enamels surface it did keep my gum pockets stable at 3mm versus 7 and 9mm pockets for years and years.

So what's the other side of the coin here? Yes, baking soda may be a bit abrasive but it prevents pocket 9's. Those are really only good if your playing Texas Hold'em.

Baking Soda is great at killing bacteria in the mouth because it's keeps the ph levels at much more alkaline levels which are the least hospitable environments for oral bacteria that want to devour your gums and jawbones on a daily basis.

Another thing to consider in the quest to determine the truth of whether or not baking soda is 'too abrasive' to be brushing with is the diet and health of the individual. If your diet sucks (sweets, processed foods, etc., very acidic diet) your tooth enamel will generally be less strong. If you are, lets say a vegetarian, eating a highly alkaline diet with lots of calcium rich foods, and a non-smoker, etc, than the abrasiveness of baking soda could "theoretically" be a non-issue for you...personally. Excepting root-canaled teeth, all other teeth are alive, and can "theoretically" be constantly re-mineralized through the tooth roots if you are consuming a healthy diet. So while we are constantly scraping plaque off the top surfaces of our teeth we are, hopefully, constantly re-mineralizing our (living) teeth through the roots. So, it's a beautiful cycle when it's understood completely (or as completely as we can).

It seems like until we know everything we really don't know anything but we have to look at every X factor that can have any impact at all on the decisions we make in life.

I think it's highly negligent and irresponsible of any dental professional to make statements like "oh mY G0D SW33T baby GEE-ZUHS!!!, baking soda is so abrasive you gotta stop NOW!" statements in a void. If they are going to talk about it then they should give an overall picture of the pros and cons. I wonder if it angers them when people don't use ADA products?

Give me the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

P.S. I am not even close to being considered or called a 'chemist'.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 07:43:12 AM by JustAnotherSkeptic »
Logged

billnotgatez

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Mole Snacks: +203/-54
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3556
Re: Abrasiveness of Sodium Bicarbonate
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2017, 09:17:38 AM »

@JustAnotherSkeptic
From our forum rules
Quote
Due to their potential health hazards, we will also not help you prepare your own medicines or cosmetics.
Implied in that statement we will not give medical advice.
So if you you receive an opinion to your question it will not be in relation of how the chemicals act in the human body.

I would suggest reading the forum rules
This is a forum policy.
Click on the link near the top center of the forum page.
Forum Rules: Read This Before Posting.
http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=65859.0

We may split your post to a different thread stream.
Logged

JustAnotherSkeptic

  • Guest
Re: Abrasiveness of Sodium Bicarbonate
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2017, 09:38:58 AM »


My post is not really a question or a request for any advice at all, medical or otherwise. It's more of just a "me too" post that agrees with the original poster and a rant about why I agree with his original post.
Logged

billnotgatez

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Mole Snacks: +203/-54
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3556
Re: Abrasiveness of Sodium Bicarbonate
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2017, 09:42:38 AM »

@JustAnotherSkeptic
Sometimes things are implied and I do not see it at first myself
Thank you for the clearing it up for me.
Logged

Enthalpy

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Mole Snacks: +177/-48
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2286
Re: Abrasiveness of Sodium Bicarbonate
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2017, 03:31:22 AM »

I had imagined that the human mouth is naturally a bit acid and that the bicarbonate neutralizes it or makes it basic. Are there detrimental effects to expect? Some natural bactericide action lost maybe?
Logged

Anika920

  • Guest
Re: Abrasiveness of Sodium Bicarbonate
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2017, 06:14:29 PM »

Hello, dental hygienist. Not here to diagnose, but to help in this discussion.
I was researching this for my own knowledge and came across this post.
However, in school I recall learning that it was salt that was abrasive to teeth not baking soda. I personally would not tell someone baking soda is too abrasive unless I felt I was seeing potential damage. Absolutely tooth brush hardness and technique also play into this factor as well as diet.
Baking soda is basic though and will help with stopping break down of tooth structure via acids (also produced by bacteria).
A few things
1. we use baking soda in the dental office
2. There is commercial baking soda toothpaste available with an ADA seal, therefore it can't be horrible to use.
3. I suggest multiple products depending on patient needs and wants rather than a generic "x is best for all"
4. Some hygienists are more natural, but the average hygienist will recommend ADA approved products or common names.
5. ADA seal on toothpaste means it contains fluoride.
6. Baking soda is cautioned with people who have high blood pressure

I find it interesting the patient on here whose pockets jumped. Interesting case study!
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Mitch Andre Garcia's Chemical Forums 2003-Present.

Page created in 0.087 seconds with 23 queries.