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Author Topic: Another elephant toothpaste thread  (Read 2397 times)

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Not a Kemist

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Another elephant toothpaste thread
« on: April 19, 2017, 07:45:17 AM »

I want to do this experiment.
I watched multiple YouTube videos and and found a few websites but still have a couple questions.

What I have is a gallon of 35% H2O2, 100g of sodium iodide, and a 2L flask. And of course the dish washing liquid... and food coloring for effect.
I'm finding conflicting or just random information on ratios.

For the size flask I have would 32oz. of hydrogen peroxide be ok?
How much dish soap should I add to that?
My biggest question is on the sodium iodide. I think every video I've watched whether it was sodium iodide or potassium iodide it was a liquid. Mine is a powder... does this matter? If not, would I add it as a powder or mix it with something to make it a liquid... and how much?

Any advantage of the potassium over the sodium?
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Not a Kemist

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Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2017, 07:51:48 AM »

This seems to be one of the better videos on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei5kGOW1wT8

It appears he probably has less H2O2 than I mentioned and the dish soap just seems to be a random amount.
But he did specify that he is using sodium iodide but it was clearly a liquid unlike my powder...

This video is using potassium iodide (also liquid) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5qvi20J5IM
Actually in this video at least at the end his amount of potassium iodide seemed random... he just poured until the reaction started....
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billnotgatez

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Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2017, 09:24:35 AM »

For all those members that want to participate in this thread please do not do a brain dump.
Instead let us assist the original poster with learning.

@Not a Kemist
What safety precautions are you going to take?

For your question
Quote
Mine is a powder... does this matter? If not, would I add it as a powder or mix it with something to make it a liquid... and how much?
Look at the following WIKI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_iodide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_iodide
Can you dissolve them in water and what amount would make the most concentrated solution of each.
You can assume about 20C (68F) to 25C (77F) room temperature.

To your point
Quote
I'm finding conflicting or just random information on ratios.

Many reactions happen no mater the ratio
Just not at there optimum.
More is not always better.
Also there is in chemistry the concept of limiting reagent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limiting_reagent

Post back and we will work through more of your question.








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billnotgatez

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Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2017, 09:36:23 AM »

By the way out of curiosity
What brand dish soap are you using.
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Not a Kemist

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Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2017, 09:40:37 AM »

Thank you for the reply.


@Not a Kemist
What safety precautions are you going to take?

Well, I'm under the assumption this is a relatively safe experiment so I figured safety glasses and rubber gloves would suffice.
As well as plenty of open space... was planning on doing this indoors (I have about 20' of ceiling height where I am doing it). If you think that is insufficient then I could just as well move it outside.
It is my understanding that the reaction is hot and can be a skin irritant but can be easily cleaned up with water.


For your question
Quote
Mine is a powder... does this matter? If not, would I add it as a powder or mix it with something to make it a liquid... and how much?
Look at the following WIKI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_iodide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_iodide
Can you dissolve them in water and what amount would make the most concentrated solution of each.
You can assume about 20C (68F) to 25C (77F) room temperature.

To your point
Quote
I'm finding conflicting or just random information on ratios.

Many reactions happen no mater the ratio
Just not at there optimum.
More is not always better.
Also there is in chemistry the concept of limiting reagent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limiting_reagent

Post back and we will work through more of your question.

I appreciate the links... I just skimmed them all as I am about to head out for a few hours.
I will give them a more thorough reading when I return.

Thanks again!
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Not a Kemist

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Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2017, 09:41:33 AM »

By the way out of curiosity
What brand dish soap are you using.

I generally buy 'Dawn'... does this matter?
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billnotgatez

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Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2017, 09:54:51 AM »

By the way out of curiosity
What brand dish soap are you using.

I generally buy 'Dawn'... does this matter?


probably will still work

I just wanted to post the ingredients for possible later discussion.

These are some of if not all the ingredients that  are in
Dawn Dishwashing Liquid, Original Scent

Chemical
Fragrance(s)/perfume(s)
Ethanol/SD Alcohol 40
2-Phenoxyethanol
Cyclohex-1,2-ylenediamine
Methylisothiazolinone
Acid Blue 9
Sodium chloride
Water
Magnesium chloride anhydrous
PPG-26 Oleate
Pei-14 PEG-10/PPG-7 Copolymer
(C10-C16) Alcohol ethoxylate, sulfated, sodium salt
Sulfuric acid, mono-C10-16-alkyl esters, sodium salts
C10-16-Alkyldimethylamines oxides
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billnotgatez

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Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2017, 10:36:54 AM »

...
Well, I'm under the assumption this is a relatively safe experiment so I figured safety glasses and rubber gloves would suffice.
As well as plenty of open space... was planning on doing this indoors (I have about 20' of ceiling height where I am doing it). If you think that is insufficient then I could just as well move it outside.
It is my understanding that the reaction is hot and can be a skin irritant but can be easily cleaned up with water.
...

I like your safety thoughts.
It appears to be safe for the inside, but outside might be better.
At least for the first time.
I saw 1 video where the stuff hit the ceiling an that would make for a messy cleanup.

The Hydrogen peroxide does have a bleaching action so a lab coat may protect your clothing.
I was wondering if the reaction being exothermic (producing heat) would be too hot for plastic,
but I see some web sites using plastic bottles.
In any case, I would have the container on a level surface and not holding it in your hand.
When you do the experiment keep in mind heat is created.

This is supposed to be relatively safe experiment,
but when they do it with kids they use different reagents which are safer.

I would say that you would not want to use the whole gallon of hydrogen peroxide.
Start small and build up is usually a safe plan.

I will be away until tomorrow.
That should give you enough time to think about those dissolve solution question I asked.
Also you might read more pages on the internet
GOOGLE  elephant toothpaste
When I do an experiment - I do reading research first.
I do not necessarily try to read everything.
But, youtube watching should not be the only source.
I see you said you read some sites but you might look up the kids version of this experiment.

A caveat
I have not done this experiment myself ----- yet
but you got me thinking I should have

By the way
https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/en/concentration-solution/3-13/milligram%2Fliter-gram%2F100mL/
EDIT: the below link is better see my later apology post
mg/mL to g/100 mL
http://www.endmemo.com/sconvert/mg_mlg_dl.php

« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 09:36:56 AM by billnotgatez »
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Not a Kemist

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Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2017, 02:46:41 PM »

Thanks again for the help.

Don't worry, I'm in no hurry to do this... I bought the ingredients a month ago!
I prefer to do it properly and safely. One of the reasons I joined this forum today. I have plenty of other hobbies to keep me busy till then.

I may do it outside but while solving possible issues of being inside if I go out I'll either have to make sure its a calm day...or be careful of the weather... I'd prefer to not get a face full of this stuff if I'm down wind of the flask.
And as you mentioned it won't be in my hand... its a glass flask that will be on a sturdy table.

The day ran later than I anticipated... I'll put a little more research into this tomorrow... maybe try to be ready for on Sunday.
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billnotgatez

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Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2017, 07:57:11 AM »

I thought I would add that when the videos talked about the reaction they mentioned the word catalyst
when describing Why they added the various iodide compounds.
And I was pondering that and what we would call the other items mentioned in the videos/
Catalyst
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalysis
Reagent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagent

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Not a Kemist

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Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2017, 03:06:12 PM »

Thank you sir. I will check those out. I also installed a couple apps on my phone for a little learning help... time is gonna be tight for the next couple months as I have a major remodeling project going on at the house.
I'll dig into this a little more tomorrow as I may want to try this over the weekend if I get the time.
However even after reading through the links you posted yesterday I'm still not sure how much of the sodium iodide I should mix with what amount of water.
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billnotgatez

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Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2017, 09:18:47 AM »

...
 I'm still not sure how much of the sodium iodide I should mix with what amount of water.



This is the information on the links I posted that is of interest

Sodium iodide
Solubility in water
158.7 g/100 mL (0 °C)
184.2 g/100 mL (25 °C)
227.8 g/100 mL (50 °C)
294 g/100 mL (70 °C)
302 g/100 mL (100 °C)

Potassium iodide
Solubility in water   
1280 mg/mL (0 °C (32 °F))
1400 mg/mL (20 °C (68 °F))
1760 mg/mL (60 °C (140 °F))
2060 mg/mL (100 °C (212 °F))

I also said
You can assume about 20C (68F) to 25C (77F) room temperature.

in a later post I gave a hint
By the way
https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/en/concentration-solution/3-13/milligram%2Fliter-gram%2F100mL/
EDIT: the below link is better see my next post
mg/mL to g/100 mL
http://www.endmemo.com/sconvert/mg_mlg_dl.php

Do you want to have a go at trying to calculate what a concentrated solution of each would be?



« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 09:34:24 AM by billnotgatez »
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billnotgatez

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Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2017, 09:28:44 AM »

I have to apologize
the converter I previously posted was for
mg/L to g/100 mL
this one is for
mg/mL to g/100 mL
http://www.endmemo.com/sconvert/mg_mlg_dl.php
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Borek

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Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2017, 10:21:17 AM »

Check pdfs linked to in the wikipedia article.

30% and 35% are perfectly equivalent here.
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Not a Kemist

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Re: Another elephant toothpaste thread
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2017, 03:16:37 PM »

...
 I'm still not sure how much of the sodium iodide I should mix with what amount of water.



This is the information on the links I posted that is of interest

Sodium iodide
Solubility in water
158.7 g/100 mL (0 °C)
184.2 g/100 mL (25 °C)
227.8 g/100 mL (50 °C)
294 g/100 mL (70 °C)
302 g/100 mL (100 °C)

Potassium iodide
Solubility in water   
1280 mg/mL (0 °C (32 °F))
1400 mg/mL (20 °C (68 °F))
1760 mg/mL (60 °C (140 °F))
2060 mg/mL (100 °C (212 °F))

I also said
You can assume about 20C (68F) to 25C (77F) room temperature.

in a later post I gave a hint
By the way
https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/en/concentration-solution/3-13/milligram%2Fliter-gram%2F100mL/
EDIT: the below link is better see my next post
mg/mL to g/100 mL
http://www.endmemo.com/sconvert/mg_mlg_dl.php

Do you want to have a go at trying to calculate what a concentrated solution of each would be?

Well, I'm not sure I'm reading this right.

So from the table at 77 degrees F.. 184.2 g/100 mL (25 °C)
Is this saying I can mix 184 grams of sodium iodide with 100 milliliters of water?
That seems like a hell of of a lot of sodium iodide and a small amount of water.

Or is this just the maximum I can dissolve in the water but may actually need much less?

I guess I'm assuming I'm measuring the sodium by weight and the water by volume...
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