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Author Topic: need acid to dissolve a nickel copper sleeve rivetted  (Read 1408 times)

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susu

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need acid to dissolve a nickel copper sleeve rivetted
« on: August 06, 2017, 06:41:05 AM »

I am new to this forum and if this is not the right subject for this forum, please tell me which forum i need to put this in.
I have a some sleeve rivetted on to a piece of glass bead that made with nickel copper alloy that i want to soft or dissolve at home not in a school laboratory.  I do try to immerse these alloy in a store bought sulphuric acid for lead acid battery refilled but in 10 days the nickel copper alloy are still very strong, it does not soften enough.   I need a stronger solution that the nickel copper alloy will be softer to use a plier to deform it and pull it out easily.   I hope to able to work it in my back yard or garage so i do not want to have too much controlled environment or may have the danger to cause.  I wish i can buy some materials and prepare it when i use them instead of storing a lot of them for possible danger!
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chenbeier

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Re: need acid to dissolve a nickel copper sleeve rivetted
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2017, 07:25:38 AM »

I think its not easy to do at home.  Copper is not soluble in sulfuric or hydrochloric acid. The only acid what dissolve would be nitric acid. But this will create poisson NOx . You need good exhaust.
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susu

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will sulphuric acid and hydrogen peroxide added soften nickel copper alloy
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2017, 09:33:21 AM »

Thank you member "chenbeier" for advising nitric acid.  I am new to this forum so i do not know how to reply to his reply to my question so i post a new topic.

Will sulphuric acid ( battery acid ) add hydrogen peroxide soften the nickel copper alloy rivet to the extent that i can use a plier to deform it to take it out without breaking the glass?
 
I only need to soften the nickel copper alloy rivet enough in a week in a closed glass container so that i can use a plier to deform it then i pull them out from the glass and the most important thing is the glass is not damaged.  Since i am doing this at my back yard or garage,  I do not want to boil the sulphuric acid to make it more concentrated.   i certainly do not need any poison gas form during this process. 

Any idea if battery acid add with hydrogen peroxide to do the job?
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Borek

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Re: need acid to dissolve a nickel copper sleeve rivetted
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2017, 09:52:23 AM »

i do not know how to reply to his reply to my question

Hove you tried the "Reply" button?
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Borek

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Any idea if battery acid add with hydrogen peroxide to do the job?

IMHO way too dangerous mixture to be used if you have no experience with it.
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susu

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Muriatic acid & 3% hydrogen peroxide will soften nickel copper alloy?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2017, 10:45:25 AM »

I need to find some easily available acid and solution to soften a rivet tightly holding a piece of glass and i want to use a chemical method to soften the rivet enough so that i can use a plier to remove it without chipping, cracking or breaking the glass.  I do try to use a plier before i try the chemical method, i break 99% the glass.  I do try to immerse the piece into a battery acid ( about 30% concentration of sulphuric acid for 10 days, it dissolve the nickel a little bit but it do not soften it enough to be pliable, i still break all the glass that i tried.

I dig deeper today and some say hydrochloric acid may be possible?
The easily commercially available is Muriatic acid ( i do not know what concentration of Hydrochloric acid it contained, which people usually it for cleaning the swimming pool ), and i do not know if this concentration of hydrochloric acid will soften the nickel copper alloy  by immersing in it in a week?

I am doing this at home at my backyard or garage, so i have minimum protective gear that will prevent spiltage only.  And i certainly do not want to use Nitric acid which will generate poison gas.

Anyone have any other suggestion on any commercially available acid?
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Borek

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Re: need acid to dissolve a nickel copper sleeve rivetted
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2017, 11:42:06 AM »

No, hydrochloric won't work, you need an oxidizing acid to dissolve copper and the easiest to buy and relatively easy to work with is nitric.

No idea about the nickel part, but just copper can be etched with FeCl3 or sodium persulfate (google for "etching PCB"). At least the latter is easy to buy where I live in shops with electronic parts.
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Athrax

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Re: need acid to dissolve a nickel copper sleeve rivetted
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2017, 02:00:13 PM »

Hydrochloric acid will dissolve copper if either you add some hydrogenperoxide, or if you do not fully cover the metal in acid and are really patient. What's happening is that the HCL vapors will break down the copper oxide, exposing raw copper to the air, which will oxidise...and that new oxide layer again gets dissolved. In any case it's a slow process that can take a week or two at the minimum.
 
Perhaps worth a thought: Have you tried dissolving the copper/nickel rivet electrolytically? Submerge the object in sodium bicarbonate solution (don't use NaCl, chlorine gas isn't fun), contact the rivet with a graphite electrode, hang a second electrode into the solution, wire it up to a power source of between 6 and 12V, and wait 2-3 hours.
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susu

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Re: need acid to dissolve a nickel copper sleeve rivetted
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2017, 06:12:38 AM »

1. Thanks for all of your input and i will research more into all your suggestion and find the best and safest way to do it.
2. How poison is the nitric acid gas formed with a very small amount of work, may be 5 ml at one time.  I read on the internet, when use nitric acid to dissolve copper, the poison gas may cause endema, and possibly death? How do the school exhaust the poison NOx gas form, into the air?  will the gas formed dissolve in anything, like water to form something that is not poison any more?  besides, the poison gas form,  I do not know if nitric acid will dissolve nickel alloy.
3. Member Borek, Member Chenberier, how danger if i put little may be 5ml 30% sulphuric acid and 5ml 3% hydrogen peroxide and a small piece 0.3mm thick X 5mm diameter sleeve X 7mm height nickel copper in a closed glass container work in a open air backyard?  Is this process even more dangerous than the piece to be put into a nitric acid solution? 
4. Member Anthrax, I am not in a hurry, I want to find an easy and safest way to this.  The glass i want to save is very cheap and do not worth to risk my life to save them but i have many thousand peices so i cannot afford to throw them away. I can wait 2 weeks or 3 weeks to let it happen as long as the investment is not too much and it is a safe method. I am not sure if the nickel copper will dissolve like the copper alone.  Can i use the baking soda as the Sodium bicarbonate?  it is hard to connect the piece of rivet to a graphite electrode.  May be i will found a electrode that is round and fit loosely into the sleeve rivet.  what if there are some piece that do not contact well with the electrode, only result is copper do not dissolve?
5. Member Borex, i do find Sodium persulfate online, it is used for etching copper.  it is not too expensive, i do not know how long it will take to dissolve the nickel copper alloy to a point that i can deform it easily mechanically to take it out safely. i will give it a try. thanks.
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Borek

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Re: need acid to dissolve a nickel copper sleeve rivetted
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2017, 07:21:05 AM »

how danger if i put little may be 5ml 30% sulphuric acid and 5ml 3% hydrogen peroxide and a small piece 0.3mm thick X 5mm diameter sleeve X 7mm height nickel copper in a closed glass container work in a open air backyard?  Is this process even more dangerous than the piece to be put into a nitric acid solution?

I would prefer to work with nitric acid. Nitric acid reaction produces some poisonous gases, but it is not difficult to avoid them (in the worst case just leaving them to disperse in the air, a bit of wind never hurts in such situations) and their production is quite predictable. Piranha solution (H2SO4/H2O2) can react violently for no apparent reason (well, that typically means some organic residue was present) splashing the concentrated acid around.
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susu

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Re: need acid to dissolve a nickel copper sleeve rivetted
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 07:33:35 AM »

Thanks for all your input and i start to dig deeper into this and find hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide will etch copper too. 

Muriatic acid ( pool cleaner which is 30% hydrochloric acid ) and add 3% hydrogen peroxide to etch the copper instead of Ferric chloride as the solution is more enviromental friendly and reusable.  I do not save the copper.  I am going to neutralize the end solution with baking soda before tossing into toilet.

Any idea or comment if this method is the easiest, safest, most convenient way and most economical to dissolve some of the copper from the sleeve rivet?

thank you for your input and time.
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susu

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Re: need acid to dissolve a nickel copper sleeve rivetted
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2017, 08:13:01 AM »

thank you for member Borex, I do aware that adding Hydrogen peroxide to sulphuric acid do create some excessive bubble and splashing but there is no poison gas created.  I will use a extra long plastic tube dropper to put the hydrogen peroxide little by little to avoid me catching the splashing.  I am going to do this my backyard so the splashing or excessive sulphuric acid gas or .
The sulphuric acid, and hydrogen peroxide is easily purchased from any retail store so i do not need to overstock any more that i can use.

I do a research for Nitric acid, i have to order it from a chemical company online and it is not easily purchased from any retail store.  and i may overstock what i do not need and have to neutralize with baking soda to dispose them after this project is done.


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