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Author Topic: The Decline of Home Chemistry  (Read 53560 times)

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billnotgatez

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The Decline of Home Chemistry
« on: August 14, 2005, 12:52:40 AM »

This discussion on government restrictions was too large to copy to here.
So I post the link only.
You need to scroll down a short distance.

Christian Thorsten on Laws Affecting Legitimate Amateur Science

http://www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2005/2005-08-12/backscatter/index.html

new link
http://www.soamsci.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2005/2005-08-12/backscatter/index.html
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 09:46:47 AM by billnotgatez »
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billnotgatez

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Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2005, 09:19:37 PM »

Should I post the contents of the link?
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billnotgatez

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Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2005, 11:59:12 AM »

At this time there were 60 views of this post and yet there are no responses.
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hmx9123

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Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2005, 05:34:53 PM »

What did you expect?  You led with no comment or opinion, only a link.  People are going to read the link and that's it unless you post something for discussion.  What's your opinion on the laws regarding amateur science?
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billnotgatez

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Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2005, 02:40:07 PM »

hmx9123 and Mitch

Thank you for reading the link and posting to this thread.

Bill
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hmx9123

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Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2005, 07:45:49 AM »

So, I must ask again, Bill, what is your take on the article?  I am curious.
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woelen

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Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2005, 11:29:44 AM »

Well, I must say, this link has done a LOT. I found it here and also posted it on a Dutch forum, where it resulted in a discussion having tens of reactions. Now some people are working on a letter to some Dutch politicians. At the moment the climate in the Netherlands is not good at all for home chemists, due to a recent terrorist murder over here of a well known person (Theo van Gogh) and due to accidents with young boys who were misusing chemicals.

In the meantime, the link also is copied to science madness and over there also is quite some discussion. So, you are the single source of all this discussion and possible spin-off in the form of letters, but unfortunately you have not seen anything of it.
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billnotgatez

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Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2005, 09:03:57 PM »

hmx9123
The experience that woelen had with this article is what I was hoping for here. I did not want to influence the discussion by giving my opinion. Especially, since I have yet to form a coherent study of the topic. I can say that I am sympathetic to the contention Christian Thorsten puts forth. I was definitely trying to give a place on this forum for this topic, rather than have it littered among other posts that were not specifically related to this topic.  

Woelen
Could you post some links that are discussing this topic from the locations on the Internet that you mention? Especially, the posts that are in English. I appreciate your efforts.

Regards,
Bill
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woelen

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Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2005, 12:01:40 AM »

This is the discussion on scimad:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4325
You, however, need to register at the forum if you want to read it and ask the moderator ('Polverone') of the site for a password in order to access this link (the so-called whimsy section of scimad is not freely accessible). This one is not started by myself, someone else has posted the link on scimad.

This is the link at the Dutch forum.
http://chemixtry.fuckhedz.com/index.php?showtopic=2058
It is freely accessible. This one I started myself. Unfortunately for you, it is in Dutch, so your mileage may vary in your understanding of this :(.
Read post #13 of this thread. One of the members ("Taaie-Neuskoek") has written a letter to the author of the article and received a reply on it. That part at least you can understand. This person "Taaie-Neuskoek" and I intend to write a letter to some Dutch people about this subject.
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billnotgatez

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Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2005, 01:39:20 AM »

Woelen - thank you very much - Regards Bill
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billnotgatez

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Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2005, 07:19:14 PM »

This web page has a discussion about a Texas law requires anyone who owns certain glassware to give up their 4th Amendment protections against unlawful search and seizure.

http://www.sas.org/E-Bulletin/2002-03-29/feedback/body.html

I sympathize with the editor.
Since this is an older post the laws may have changed, but I doubt it.


Elsewhere on the Internet I found the following

As a point of interest --- Another past winner Ig Nobel (1994) in chemistry was Texas State Senator Bob Glasgow for sponsoring the 1989 drug control law which made it illegal to purchase beakers, flasks, test tubes, or other laboratory glassware without a permit. But you still don’t need a permit to buy a hand gun or assault rifle! Go figure!  8-)

« Last Edit: September 13, 2005, 07:36:07 PM by billnotgatez »
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woelen

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Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2005, 11:59:34 PM »

I think the USA is a strange country. The funny thing is that I as a Dutch citizen can obtain much more chems from the USA than I can get from European sources (also things like KBrO3, NaNO2, I2 were happily shipped to me (safely, following ADR-regulations)) while on the other hand I read all those fearsome things about people being watched inside the USA. I have the feeling that it is quite easy to get almost everything (good and bad) from the USA (as long as it yields money and is exported, it is OK), while sending thing TO the USA is really hard and painful.

If I look at the Texas laws, then I only have one word for that: idiot.

Over here, having guns and the like is prohibited. People may participate at shooting clubs, but you need to register your gun and you are only allowed to shoot at the club's place in specially prepared areas or (large) rooms. Only few people over here have guns. In the Netherlands, laws are very restrictive on anything that has to do with explosives, weapons and fireworks. Pyrotechnics simply is forbidden in the Netherlands. Having KClO3 around makes you quite suspect over here, but having that is not forbidden. Showing a little nice fountain in your backyard, however may result in a visit of the police.

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jdurg

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Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2005, 05:00:21 AM »

The problem with many of these 'laws' and editorials about these laws is that the people who write the editorials really don't know much about the legal system and will only take one or two lines from the entire legal code and spout off on it.  Over at another forum, I recently got into a debate with someone over the purchasing of Red Phosphorus.  He replied by giving a snippet of a law that is posted on a DEA website which makes it seem like purchasing red phosphorus is illegal and will get you arrested.  He also claimed that purchasing it will get you watched by the government.  

If you look at the ENTIRE law that is written, you'll see that there is absolutely no place where it says that it's illegal to posess the chemical and trying to buy it will get you arrested.  It simply states the following:

1):  Those who work with and sell large amounts of Red/White Phosphorus and Hypophosphorus acid/salts must keep a record of where that phosphorus is.  I.E. they need to know how much they have at all times.

2):  Those who deal with the phosphorus and the compounds must be registered with the government.

3):  When a sale is made of the phosphorus/compounds, information about the transaction must be documented.  (Nowhere does it say that it has to be reported).

4):  The phosphorus compounds can be sold to anybody as long as it is for an end/use.  I.E. you can't buy ten pounds of the stuff and then sell it to other people without a license.

So the only thing the government is doing is saying that when you sell the phosphorus/compounds, you have to database whom it was sold to and how much.  This is not 'watching' you nor is it saying that it's illegal.  All the government is doing is keeping a database for evidence purposes.  If someone who's been buying red phosphorus and ephedrine gets busted for methamphetamine production, they'll have proof of the purchasing as evidence for conviction.

Further into all the CFR documents, you'll read that you can possess all the chemicals you want for the production of drugs/bombs as long as you aren't knowingly obtaining them for that purpose.  You are allowed to have almost any chemical on earth as long as you aren't attempting to do something illegal with it.  Sadly, when an editorial is written, the part about 'knowingly possessing them for said use' is omitted from the quote, and all you read is 'It's illegal to possess'.

If you aren't doing anything illegal, then you have nothing to worry about.  If you are doing something illegal, then I have no sympathy for you.

As a side note, there are two chemicals I know of which are illegal to posses.  One can only be possessed if you have a license, and the other is just not allowed to be had.  Anhydrous ethanol that is not denatured cannot be possessed without a license.  This is due to the fact that you can drink the stuff and there is a mandatory alcohol tax which is applied to any drinkable alcohol.  The anhydrous stuff has no tax on it, so it's incredibly cheap.  As a result, the government doesn't want you buying it and selling it as tax-free alcohol.  The other chemical is diethyl amine and that's because there is no other use for diethyl amine aside from LSD production.  Any other reaction that it would be used in can be accomplished with other chemicals in the same manner.  For LSD production, however, ONLY diethylamine would work.
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limpet chicken

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Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2005, 06:18:25 AM »

Actually Jdurg, there are plenty of other uses of diethylamine, one of which is reductive amintion of P2P or MD-P2P to give ethylamphetamine or MDME respectively ;D
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billnotgatez

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Re: The Decline of Home Chemistry
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2005, 02:57:48 PM »

Do you think it is time to stop taxing ethanol?
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