Chemical Forums
General Forums => Generic Discussion => Topic started by: niertap on July 23, 2006, 03:45:18 AM
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so Iran is screwed, stick it to 'em Israel!!
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please elaborate
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I must admit the original poster's comment does seem rather brief and ambiguous.... ;D
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I have no idea what the threadstarter is talking about.
All I know there is strong Iranian interest in Iraq which conflicts the Amercian interest.
And the stupid nuclear issue.. USA claims that Iran, being oil-rich, does not need nuclear energy.
However, oil is primarily used to make petrol and dissel for automobiles.
Domestic energy generation uses coal.
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I wonder what would happen if the entire middle east blew up and all/most of the countries started fighting. It seams that quite a few of them simply don't get along with any of their neighbors. The U.S. is currently stuck in the middle almost, seeing as we have quite a few troops tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I'm going to keep watching what happens over there. Personally the whole region bugs me because there is always some type of conflict over there.
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I wonder what would happen if the entire middle east blew up and all/most of the countries started fighting.
Personally the whole region bugs me because there is always some type of conflict over there.
I agree. It won't get resolved anytime soon, and something's BOUND to happen. American getting allied with Iraq smacks too much of the alliances that formed to start World War I (knock on wood).
Something's gonna go down. And when it does, it'll be huge. Thank goodness I live in Canada :D hehe
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I wonder what would happen if the entire middle east blew up and all/most of the countries started fighting. It seams that quite a few of them simply don't get along with any of their neighbors. The U.S. is currently stuck in the middle almost, seeing as we have quite a few troops tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Actually stationing troops on the pretext of governing Iraq is a good military tactic. The American troops not only help to maintain security in Iraq, but also act as a major military deterrent in the Middle East. Why do you think the Iranians object having American troops at their border? (Iraq is adjacent to Iran.)
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Good point geodome. With American troops in Iraq, an invasion of Iran could be extremely swift with little warning. It wouldn't be one of these "ok we're send out a couple of carriers and we'll be there to invade in a few weeks" things. That is a major deterrant
Well Iran doesn't have to worry about an invasion, nor do any of the other countries in that area. At least for now, until Iraq is able to secure itself.
This whole Israel vs. Hezbollah (sorry if the spelling isn't right) may work out to be in the favor of world security. One less rogue faction in the world and maybe a slightly more stable middle east.
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Israel should have to pay (without US assistance) for all of the damage done to Lebanon. The premise is absurd. Hold an entire country accountable for the actions of a minority and then blow up the country's infrastructure. There are rogue elements in every culture.
As an analogy, suppose a small group of the Crips (a Los Angeles based street gang) mugged and killed a Chinese diplomat (an entirely plausible event if you have ever lived in a large city in the US). Would it be fair retaliation for China to blow up the Los Angeles airport, the port structure in LA, every major highway in LA, Beverly Hills and 30,000 US citizens in addition to 1 or 2 of the targeted Crips? I don't believe so. The Crips philosophy does not represent the majority of the US citizens. It is evident that the US government can not control internal crime within its borders. The Chinese government can't hold another government accountable for something that the US government simply can't control.
As far as Iran and the nuclear argument, it is simply US hegemony. What right does the US have to declare who is "evil" and who can and can't have nuclear weapons or nuclear power? Silly stuff, man.
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Israel should have to pay (without US assistance) for all of the damage done to Lebanon. The premise is absurd. Hold an entire country accountable for the actions of a minority and then blow up the country's infrastructure. There are rogue elements in every culture.
As an analogy, suppose a small group of the Crips (a Los Angeles based street gang) mugged and killed a Chinese diplomat (an entirely plausible event if you have ever lived in a large city in the US). Would it be fair retaliation for China to blow up the Los Angeles airport, the port structure in LA, every major highway in LA, Beverly Hills and 30,000 US citizens in addition to 1 or 2 of the targeted Crips? I don't believe so. The Crips philosophy does not represent the majority of the US citizens. It is evident that the US government can not control internal crime within its borders. The Chinese government can't hold another government accountable for something that the US government simply can't control.
Dude: I disagree with this analogy. Hezbollah is not a minority group in Lebanon, it is a major political party and armed force (which last time I checked little groups like the Crips were not). And more importantly Hezbollah was formed for the purpose of countering Israeli occupation. So I do not think the "premise is absurd" as you say, but rather quite understandable.
As far as Iran and the nuclear argument, it is simply US hegemony. What right does the US have to declare who is "evil" and who can and can't have nuclear weapons or nuclear power? Silly stuff, man.
Dude: On this statement I tend to agree. If the US were entirely self sufficient (including oil) would they even bother with the rest of the world? On the flip side though I presume that for every argument that someone supplies for evil that America does there are an equal number of good things the US has done for the world.
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The Arab population increases at a faster rate than the Israelis. It would probably be wise for Israel to make a sustainable peace sooner rather than later.
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Thinking about it, it's kind of amazing that Israel is still there. It's this little island of Jews in great big sea of Arabs. Also, I guess some parts of Europe are still a bit anti-jewish.
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How about this for a better analogy.
The IRA (affiliated to Sinn Fein a political party in Ireland) blows up a town centre in the Mainland UK or Northen Ireland killing dozens of Innocent civilians so the UK bombs the crap out of Dublin.
Or the IRA using weapons sent by Irish Americans ambush and kill 6 UK soldiers on border patrol so the UK bombs Boston.
How many people around the world would agree that that is a proportionate action by one country against another?
Both those killings happened along with ~3000 others over 30 years but the UK did not attack another country over it and in the end the only way forward was by talking. People in the UK did not like "giving in" to terrorists but in the end it stopped people being blown up.
Israel should learn from that and start acting like a grown up country not a petulant child.
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I think this situation may be slightly different. I think it's more Hezbollah just wants to kill all the Jews, and that's there only goal. I haven't heard of them demanding any land or anything.
How can you talk to an organization that only wants to kill people because there of a different religion/ethnicity no matter what the cost. I mean what are you going to do, offer them 1,000 Israeli Jews up for slaughter to stop firing missiles into Israel?
I really don't think though that Israel would want to occupy Lebanon and keep it as a territory. I've heard erroneous claims saying that.
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A bit of an old topic, I know (sowwy) but the IRA/Britain analogy is the best.
I'd also say that contrary to popular belief, the incident did not start in July...it's been ongoing for years - I think it's just an easy way of blaming Hezbollah in a childish 'they started it first' type thing... >:(
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There are obvious reasons why the middle east is an unstable area. For one, we're witnessing a failed society and it's values, being surrounded by powerful liberal captialist countries. The only item that delays the fall of Islamic society is the fact that the western world runs on oil, which of course the middle east in abundant in.
For those of you who think the middle east is in chaos now, just stick around to the day when the western world ceases to run on oil!
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How about this for a better analogy.
The IRA (affiliated to Sinn Fein a political party in Ireland) blows up a town centre in the Mainland UK or Northen Ireland killing dozens of Innocent civilians so the UK bombs the crap out of Dublin.
Or the IRA using weapons sent by Irish Americans ambush and kill 6 UK soldiers on border patrol so the UK bombs Boston.
How many people around the world would agree that that is a proportionate action by one country against another?
Both those killings happened along with ~3000 others over 30 years but the UK did not attack another country over it and in the end the only way forward was by talking. People in the UK did not like "giving in" to terrorists but in the end it stopped people being blown up.
Israel should learn from that and start acting like a grown up country not a petulant child.
A bit of an old topic, I know (sowwy) but the IRA/Britain analogy is the best.
I don't think it's the same at all - the British had lots of troops in Island and the IRA were bombing London to try to get them out (even though the majority vote of the local people was to keep them there). Isreal arn't allowed to have troops in the Lebanon at all anymore and have always said ' we'll keep out as long were not attacked' - they were attacked and thus they kept to their word with massive retaliation. this is just going to keep on and on and on unfortunately untill their neighbors stop declairing war on them - which they won't.
The continuing cycle seems to be - Isreal are attacked - they retaliate and occupy - every one blames Isreal so they pull out - they are attacked again - They retailiate and occupy - everyone whines and moans - they pull out. They are attacked again and so on and so on.. to the end probably.
Merry Christmas anyway.
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Being that the IRA and The Irish Republic are very interesting topics, I've decided to make another thread on the boards that will address it.
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The Arab population increases at a faster rate than the Israelis. It would probably be wise for Israel to make a sustainable peace sooner rather than later.
Thinking about it, it's kind of amazing that Israel is still there. It's this little island of Jews in great big sea of Arabs. Also, I guess some parts of Europe are still a bit anti-jewish.
Many countries have vested interest to maintain the current status quo in the Middle East. Although countries such as the USA and Russian Federation take side, I doubt neither wants to see the destruction of Israel. The Middle East fiasco prevents the formation of a United Arab League which will pose more diplomatic and economic security problem to the West.
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Thinking about it, it's kind of amazing that Israel is still there. It's this little island of Jews in great big sea of Arabs. Also, I guess some parts of Europe are still a bit anti-jewish.
Well, actually Israel went to war with a large number of arab states all at the same time, and to the arab's embarassment, Israel quite frankly kicked their butt. Of course, they did have military technology from Europe, and later from the United States, largely due to the Clinton years.
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Well, actually Israel went to war with a large number of arab states all at the same time.
That there started it in my opinion. From there on in, Arab countries understandably continue to attack and Israel continue to retaliate.
I still don't see how two soldiers being kidnapped equates to what Israel did and it being allowed happen by world powers. It's just not acceptable to me.
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Well, actually Israel went to war with a large number of arab states all at the same time, and to the arab's embarassment, Israel quite frankly kicked their butt. Of course, they did have military technology from Europe, and later from the United States, largely due to the Clinton years.
The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) is only the armed force in the Middle East that has Network-Centric Warfare capabilities. The ideal type of warfare in the middle east would involve battle tanks with air support (and infantry support in urban environment). By examining the armour inventory of the various armed forces in the Middle East, we would have a clear idea who has a tactical advantage right from the start.
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The argument of Israel invading land, and keeping such land as immoral is quite shrewd. Israel occupies only strategic areas, such as the Golan heights and the west bank.
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My family was displaced from south Lebanon in 1975 when the palestinian terrorists arrived. This summer I really had high hopes that I would finally be able to return to my village. Oh well ... maybe next year :-\
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Thinking about it, it's kind of amazing that Israel is still there. It's this little island of Jews in great big sea of Arabs. Also, I guess some parts of Europe are still a bit anti-jewish.
What about the non-arab minorities that are constantly persecuted by the muslim fanatics and arab nationalists ? What about the Assyrians , Chaldeans, & Syriac of Iraq ? What about the Copts of Egypt ? What about the Maronites and Melkites of Lebanon ? What about the rest of the Christian minorities of the Middle East who are completely defenceless and getting chewed up because of some pseudo israeli-arab war going on one front and an arab-persian one on another ?
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My family was displaced from south Lebanon in 1975 when the palestinian terrorists arrived. This summer I really had high hopes that I would finally be able to return to my village. Oh well ... maybe next year :-\
Wow you're really involved in the situation.
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What about the non-arab minorities that are constantly persecuted by the muslim fanatics and arab nationalists ? What about the Assyrians , Chaldeans, & Syriac of Iraq ? What about the Copts of Egypt ? What about the Maronites and Melkites of Lebanon ? What about the rest of the Christian minorities of the Middle East who are completely defenceless and getting chewed up because of some pseudo israeli-arab war going on one front and an arab-persian one on another ?
I have friends who are displaced (physically and/or emotionally) by this ongoing conflict. One of mates comes from a family of Palestianian academics. She spent her childhood in Greece, Canada and the United Kingdom because she cannot return home. I have a friend who recently grieved for his cousin who died in duty while serving the Israeli Defence Force. His view towards the Arab-Israeli conflict shifted from moderate to anti-Arab overnight. Neither party wants to see the continued loss of friends and relatives in this conflict.
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I wonder what would happen if the entire middle east blew up and all/most of the countries started fighting. It seams that quite a few of them simply don't get along with any of their neighbors. The U.S. is currently stuck in the middle almost, seeing as we have quite a few troops tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Actually stationing troops on the pretext of governing Iraq is a good military tactic. The American troops not only help to maintain security in Iraq, but also act as a major military deterrent in the Middle East. Why do you think the Iranians object having American troops at their border? (Iraq is adjacent to Iran.)
I believe that the United States is "trying" to strangle Iran by surrounding them with "democratic nations", (Iran and Afghanistan) and as you said a fair percentage of their army.
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Back to Iran... Please consider the following, regardless of your politics:
The current leader of Iran, approved by the ruling religious faction, recently stated that Israel should be wiped off the map. I suppose giving him the tools to create nuclear weapons makes perfect sense.
I really don't see a need to say anything else.
Joe
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The current leader of Iran, approved by the ruling religious faction, recently stated that Israel should be wiped off the map. I suppose giving him the tools to create nuclear weapons makes perfect sense.
When does a politican say something he actually meant or he is just saying to appease the public or other figures of power in Iran?