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Chemistry Forums for Students => High School Chemistry Forum => Topic started by: williec on April 08, 2008, 11:25:34 AM

Title: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: williec on April 08, 2008, 11:25:34 AM
the aq NaOH has an approximate concentration of 2 moldm-3. i think it is to use a pH meter but it said it should involve chemical reactions. What other methords are there to find out the concentration?
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: Arkcon on April 08, 2008, 11:31:38 AM
Your application isn't perfectly clear, but titration seems necessicary for any accuracy.  What else is in solution, how accurately do you need the value, what other instruments do you have, that sort of info is needed for a better answer.
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: williec on April 09, 2008, 06:22:10 AM
there is only NaOH in the solution and you have to find the concentration as accuratly as possible, but it cant be a titration and the this method i am looking for have to involve chemical reaction. you are allowed to use any instruments.
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: AWK on April 09, 2008, 07:16:09 AM
Could you measure a density of solution?
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: Arkcon on April 09, 2008, 08:32:32 AM
So the game is, unique ways to determine concentration?  OK, I'll play.  Can you evaporate a known volume, and mass?  Or evaporate, roast to NaO, and then mass, and calculate backwards? 

Using a pH meter, on this solution, won't give you a useful answer, do you know why?  *Hint* Can you figure out the pH of a 2 M, 2.5 M, 2.25 M, and 1.13 M, or 1.0, or 0.98 M NaOH solution.  How can you fix it so you can get useful info from a pH meter? 

Notice, you still haven't answered my question, how accurately do you need the answer.  What is the likely value -- 2, 2.25, 2.5, or is it far away like 3 or 1.1.  And do you need the answer as -- 2, 2.2, 2.20, or 2.213 M.  This is info you need to know first.
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: williec on April 10, 2008, 11:30:30 AM
the question says find the concentartion as accuratly as possible but it is probably 2.d.p
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: Arkcon on April 10, 2008, 12:07:14 PM
As I understand your original question, you want to use just a pH meter, to determine the concentrations of 2.?? M NaOH, without titrating.  Can you see anything wrong with your plan?  Did you try it, what pH did you get?  Have you looked up what pH you're likely to get?
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: williec on April 11, 2008, 09:54:11 AM
no i havent try it yet. But if I use a pH meter to find the concentration can it involve some kind of chemical reactions?
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: Arkcon on April 11, 2008, 10:03:15 AM
As I study your posts, I still find it hard to understand what the question really is.  The title says you don't want a titration, you've said you want to use a pH meter, and a reaction.  You can use a pH meter, to determine the concentration of NaOH, by a chemical reaction with an acid, watching for the endpoint with a pH meter.  But that is called -- a titration.
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: williec on April 13, 2008, 01:14:57 PM
are ther any other ways without using a pH meter?
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: Borek on April 13, 2008, 01:53:21 PM
Gravimetric analysis.
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: Arkcon on April 13, 2008, 02:34:03 PM
Gravimetric analysis.

Yep.  Like AWK: said, weigh the liquid, or like I said, dry it and weigh it, or dry it, roast it, and weigh it.
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: williec on April 15, 2008, 03:28:45 PM
Dose NaOH reacts with Al and gives Hydrogen gas? if yes what are the conditions?
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: Arkcon on April 15, 2008, 03:58:37 PM
Start with this experiment here: http://www2.uni-siegen.de/~pci/versuche/english/v44-10.html
And work with it to see what's appropriate for your application.
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: williec on April 15, 2008, 04:04:57 PM
i dont really get this. so Al reacts with water to produce hydrogen??? and how do i work out the concentration of the NaOH from the whose equations if i have got the volume of hydrogen of gas produced? Or can i react it with zinc

thank you v much
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: ARGOS++ on April 16, 2008, 07:58:00 PM
Dear Williec;

If you feel confident that all Na+ is only from NaOH, you can use:  "Uranyl Zinc Acetate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranyl_zinc_acetate)”.


Good Luck!
                    ARGOS++
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: A2 student on April 21, 2008, 04:29:38 PM
Hi,
I'm doing this paper too; basically ... just to clear up as some posts seem to be a little irrelevant to what we are trying to figure out! ... we've been given the NaOH solution with an "approximate concentration of 2mol dm-3". We have to find the conc "as accurately as possible" BOTH methods have to include chemical reactions (ie so cant use a pH meter) and only one is allowed to use a titration.

To me this is as close to my thinking as I've seen:

Gravimetric analysis.
and
If you feel confident that all Na+ is only from NaOH, you can use:  "Uranyl Zinc Acetate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranyl_zinc_acetate)”.
but the thing is the whole uranyl zinc acetate thing is a bit far fetched I think ... they want us to use substances that we use in a college lab.

Does anyone know of anything else that's insoluble in NaOH because I don't really know how you figure that out! (it does have to be insoluble doesn't it in order to form a precipitate and then weigh it?)

Also ... once you have the precipitate ... what exactly would it be and how do you calculate the conc of NaOH from it?

Am fine with calculating it from a titration but this bit loses me!

Thanks muchly for any help given!
x

ps. sorry for the loooong post!
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: Borek on April 21, 2008, 04:49:50 PM
If you feel confident that all Na+ is only from NaOH, you can use:  "Uranyl Zinc Acetate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranyl_zinc_acetate)”.
but the thing is the whole uranyl zinc acetate thing is a bit far fetched I think ... they want us to use substances that we use in a college lab.

So perhaps you should try to assume that all OH- is only from NaOH and look for hydroxide that can be precipitated and filtered out?
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: A2 student on April 21, 2008, 04:54:35 PM
So perhaps you should try to assume that all OH- is only from NaOH and look for hydroxide that can be precipitated and filtered out?

okay, so would
NaOH + FeCl3 work forming a precipitate of Fe(OH)3 ... or am I making that up???
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: Borek on April 21, 2008, 05:14:13 PM
Nice try :)

Now try to use Google for a general idea about how to do it...

http://www.google.com/search?q=iron+gravimetric+determination
Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: m00 on April 21, 2008, 06:54:24 PM
Ok i have this paper too and yes alot of the answers so far have been helpful for a degree standard however, the best solution for a second experiment supposably is an enthalpy change. You use hydrochloric acid and measure ethalpy of neutralisation or something, can anyone tell me how you can use this to work out concentrations of NaOH. I know you can do an enthalpy experiment neutralise the NaOH with a certain amount of HCL, but how can u do the calculations?. Any detailed answer about what you would do be grateful ty.

Title: Re: how to determine the concentration NaOH without titration?
Post by: mnakhla on May 06, 2008, 01:15:44 AM
enthlapy change? do they want you to do it calometrically maybe and use molar bond energies of formation  of NaCl and water to calculate how much naoh...but hcl also releases heat when placed in water so you would have to look up the amount of heat released and precisesly measure out the amount of water and then subtract the amount of heat that would be evolved ...but you would have errors due to the fact that the naoh changed the volume of the water...

after that you'd have to compare the heat of formation of naoh and nacl/water to compare how much energy went where and by calculating the total diffrence in temprature and coverting it to joules you should be able to calculate the amount of naoh present...sorry if this wasnt clear im having a hard time explaining what was going through my head
and
sorry this was just a stab in the dark..