Chemical Forums
Specialty Chemistry Forums => Chemical Education and Careers => Topic started by: Valdorod on March 29, 2008, 05:10:58 PM
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These past semesters, starting with spring 07, I have been losing about half of my students in some of my classes, and last semester I had a section where only 8 students took the final, when the class began with an enrollment of 26. This semester I already lost 8 and 10 students in two different sections. Both sections began with 24. I've never had such a high drop out rate.
Maybe I am not adapting to the times. Just last week I received a textbook for evaluation and part of the package is that you can have students download lectures to their video ipods, I just switched from chalk and board to powerpoints two years ago. Now I may need to look into providing lectures on ipods! I can't keep up, I don't even own an ipod, then again maybe I should go back to chalk and board;
Valdo
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The video ipod might me just a gimmick, those are pricey, and they don't hold much, 'tho improvements can change that suddenly. Now, a downloadable audio lecture, those are becoming pretty common. You can get a digital recorder, and ask if the computer lab has a friendly geek to convert it to downloadable for, and the university should have hosting ability for you. Unless your lectures really don't work as pure audio, which is likely, for the sciences. You can probably find a power point to ipod conversion program, if you feel you have to be trendy.
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Personally for chemistry lectures I prefer chalk and board over powerpoint. Having the instructor write everything out on the board makes it easier for students to take notes whereas people lecturing from powerpoint tend to go faster, making it harder for students to follow if they're taking notes.
The one advantage of a powerpoint, however, is that you can easily post the powerpoint on the class website so your students can look at the slides from home when studying.
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I agree with Yggdrasil.
I always hated power point only lectures.
But I usually enjoy power-point assisted lectures. As in, use power point (or just a computer in general) to bring in pictures, video, animations, etc.
I am helping setup one of these in one of our class rooms:
linky (http://products9.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/office/meeting_presentation/node_VRWLL7RGXLbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSY139HBLSge/gvel_RZT5QL0Q2Dgl/theme_us_visualsystems_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html)
It is already up and running. It is freakin schweet. No professor is using it yet. They want to start the semester with it, and learn how to use it and get them on the web easy. Though most think it is a hassle and waste of time :(.
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At UCSD most of the classrooms are equipped with a audio recording device that is then converted and uploaded online for most lectures. These are useful if you miss a class but really difficult to follow without visuals.
In my opinion, powerpoints are good if they are used to assist chalkboard lectures. Commonly classes that give powerpoints available online tend to have less in class attendance.
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I'd deff. stick with Blackboards any day. I know i can visualize where they wrote the stuff, and then what he was saying at the point. If the class is all theory both voice recording and notes can be helpful. The more technical stuff you have = more chance of it going wrong! You can't break a chalkboard! ;D
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I hate powerpoints, please switch back to chalk. Powerpoints are just crude and cruel to students.
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In general I like chalk/whiteboard work. However, there are times, especially in chemistry, that powerpoint work is helpful. I know in inorganic chem, when we were going over molecular orbitals and crystal structure that the images were extremely helpful. But from what Valdorod said, people not attending lecture isn't the issue, it's people completing the course.
Valdorod, I do think you're drop rates seem quite high. I doubt it's from you "not adapting" to the times. Can I ask what courses you teach? Hopefully we can help you figure out what's causing your drop rate.
Also, as a note from a student, I would curse the teacher that made me pay an exorbitant rate for a book just because it came with trendy video ipod lectures.
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I can't help but remember a scene from the movie Real Genius...
One of the characters is taking a class (at CalTech I think). Some students skip sitting through the lecture, and instead just leave a tape recorder to record the lecture. (Old school magnetic tape.) As the semester goes on, more and more students are skipping the class and using recorders. Finally, the character is the only actual human to show up for the lecture. This includes the prof, who has set up a tape player at the lectern, so it is playing an audio recording to be recorded by all the students' tape recorders. There is a note on the blackboard: 'Caution: Math on tape is hard to follow'.
P.S. I am in the liking the backboard camp, but I graduated 15+ years ago before there was even PowerPoint. The nice thing about the prof writing out the stuff as the lecture goes on, as you can see the flow of things, and think it through as he/she writes it out. With a pre-packaged presentation all the info comes out at once and it is harder to absorb. However, this way you don't have to worry about illegible writing.
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With a pre-packaged presentation all the info comes out at once and it is harder to absorb. However, this way you don't have to worry about illegible writing.
One of the worst classes I had was an optics class where the prof made a powerpoint consisting of scans of handwritten equations. So, all of the derivations were fast, hard to absorb, and illegible.
In defense of powerpoints, however, there are some classes where powerpoint is better than chalkboard, especially in biology. Biology lends itself well to lectures where the professor puts up a image (e.g. a cartoon of a biological process, a crystal structure of an enzyme, a figure from a paper) then explains that image. In these cases, the high quality images in the powerpoint are able to convey a point/teach a concept much better than a hand-drawn images.
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Granted that I teach at a CC where students may need more scaffolding but I give lectures using Word (powerpoint is too cumbersome) and have these available to students online but their version is a fill-in-the-blank one - missing vital points and without worked out problems.
When I give the lecture, the notes are filled in where the important ideas and vocabulary are written in red. I do sometimes introduce a topic or work out problems in class on a chalk or whiteboard. But because I get tired of writing everything on the board, it helps them and me to have the notes projected on the screen. (we have rooms equipped with video and computer outputs to a screen - I bring my laptop to class) - I incorporate visuals and also access the internet for relevant topics while lecturing
That is if they miss class, they have a skeleton of notes but miss the important information. And if they come, they don't need to rush and try to write down everything, but can have notes that are pretty much the way they are projected. I get through alot of material, the students are not rushed and I also do lots examples hand-written on the board.
This seems to work for my students and currently I have 2/3 (each class 26 students) classes where I've had no drops.
See below where the first page is my lecture and the second is their notes. Hope this might help
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as I am not a teacher, I can not give you that point of view.
But as a student I can give you the following view: the use of computers and ppt suck big times when they are used too often and in a wrong way.
I am not against the use of ppt and stuff like that, but I am against teacher that use it...
I know it sounds stupid, but why do I state it like that, well because till this day on I have only had 1 teacher that knew how to use this material.
All the teachers I had, that used ppt and stuff like that, used it very badly.
Most comon mistakes:
they show ppt presentations that have only the basic in them , they give those presentations to the students too. Wich is good, but what happens is that they go way to fast so you cant keep up and you cant fill in things you want to fill in or want to add extra.
Secondly because they have this ppts they seem to trow away the older coursematerial (books that contained everything) and only hand out these ppt papers and thus you have nothing left as a student but some silly ppt paper.
+ in most cases they print it so that you have 8 or 6 squares on 1 page, try to learn that ? And try to add some things on such small printed things... just stupid.
+ even worse: some teachers dont even bother to print it out and distrubite it to their students: they simply say: you have a printer at home, use that one and print it out yourself===> way too expensive to print it out on my home printer (when school does it, its cheaper and a lot faster and easier in general) + most of the times the teacher add the ppt presenations too late at their webspace, so you cant even download the papers before the classes start... then you are sitting there with nothing at all...
Another thing is that when using stuff like that, you need to make sure everyone can see it.
At my school sometimes they use this little projecters and yes you can see it when sitting on the first 1-3 rows.. the rest is f*cked and cant even see whats projected on the board.
Another complaint: some teachers can hardly use a computer, let stand alone make a decent ppt presentation.
oh and yes when using a ppt or computer , make sure the material works ===> somtimes they notice it doenst work, so they teach without any presentation at all... just a joke...
and yet another mistake: a ppt may look cool and very nice when using it during a class, but when you print it out then it might suck...
I mean: use of too many colors, to many cool stuff etc... it looks nice on a computer screen but not on a piece of paper..
Thats why I feel that ppt presentations are only good as an extra thing, not as the course itself!
YOu can use ppt during classes but you still need to hand out a book itself.
The ppt are just the essentials of the textbook or are extra things that might help you study.
It cant be that the ppt presentations itself form the textbook itself.
Oh yes : and letting students used their own computers and enter the internet during classes ==> bad idea, most of the time they just use it to surf the net and dont even pay attention to what the teacher is saying.
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they show ppt presentations that have only the basic in them , they give those presentations to the students too. Wich is good, but what happens is that they go way to fast so you cant keep up and you cant fill in things you want to fill in or want to add extra.
Going too fast is bad, yes. However, powerpoints are not supposed to overloaded with every minute detail. If the professor goes too fast, you should ask them to go back a slide, or stop them before they advance.Secondly because they have this ppts they seem to trow away the older coursematerial (books that contained everything) and only hand out these ppt papers and thus you have nothing left as a student but some silly ppt paper.
Valid complaint, do they provide recommended books? The only time I've ever had a teacher not use a book, they gave us other books that they recommended if we wanted to have them.some teachers dont even bother to print it out and distrubite it to their students: they simply say: you have a printer at home, use that one and print it out yourself
I don't think this is an issue. It may be cheaper for the school to print them, but school's have budgets too. I have a professor who used slides in a class of 25, twice a week, can you imagine how much paper he'd use if he had to print out slides for everyone? Then figure in how many people are actually going to hang on to all of that paper, especially if it's uploaded online.
Tips for the poor college student:
1) Black & White printing
2) Double sided
3) Draft printing (quickest, and least ink printing)most of the times the teacher add the ppt presenations too late at their webspace
True, this is a problem for me sometimes. But you can still take notes on paper and supplement with the lecture notes when you do get them.Another thing is that when using stuff like that, you need to make sure everyone can see it.
At my school sometimes they use this little projecters and yes you can see it when sitting on the first 1-3 rows.. the rest is f*cked and cant even see whats projected on the board.
I would recommend those students that can't see to move up if there's room, or to bring the issue to the professor.oh and yes when using a ppt or computer , make sure the material works ===> somtimes they notice it doenst work, so they teach without any presentation at all... just a joke...
What do you mean "works"? Teaching without a presentation is fine, if they are prepared to teach on the board.You can use ppt during classes but you still need to hand out a book itself.
As I said before, I welcome any course that does not require me to purchase a book. As long as they recommend books to those who might need them.Oh yes : and letting students used their own computers and enter the internet during classes ==> bad idea, most of the time they just use it to surf the net and dont even pay attention to what the teacher is saying.
Sometimes yes, sometimes, no. I don't think that's fair to those who are using the computer correctly. It only harms the individual if they aren't paying attention.
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It is good to have both teacher and student perspectives.
I can't speak for others who use technology in their classroom and I would agree that there are pitfalls if the user is unfamiliar with the mechanics of pushing the right button or clicking the correct icons.
In my class, course notes are available for free printout on school computers rather than as a package the student has to pay for in the bookstore. Also I recommend but do not require the textbook - or suggest students share if they can.
I agree that PPT outputs are difficult to read with their small print and why Word documents seem to work better for my students and why there is room (blanks) for filling in. Projecting in large font is a must as well.
I don't want to hijack this thread but only posted my experience that has seemed to result in much fewer drops recently.
I wouldn't claim that these teaching methods may be the only reason students have been staying the whole semester but also due to the greater enforcement of Math, Reading and chemistry prerequisites.
Many students in a Gen Chem course that required at least a year of intro chem would enroll with no or little chem (or have a lagtime of 3 years or more since their last chem class) and would drop because they didn't have the background or were so over-committed with too many classes or work to keep up.
When things weren't going well, I also gave mid-semester student evaluations to find out what could be changed to make the learning a better experience. Valdo I hope you can find out what can turn things around for you. Just my 2 cents
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Thanks for all the input :)
I teach general chemistry parts I and II concurrently, different students of course, a class called Health chemistry, which is less rigorous and for students applying for nursing school or physical therapy. I also teach one section of organic chemistry.
The classes are small the maximum per section that is allowed is 24 students, However at the beginning of each semester a couple of sections will have one or two over since drops are expected.
Classrooms are small, thus visually seing the presentations is not a problem. All my powerpoints come straight from the book in terms of tables and graphics as well as worked out examples. Since they come from the book the student can follow directly from the book.
Where I teach students are allowed to print free (I do believe there is a maximum daily limit, however) thus there is really no excuse not to have them. They can download them from three different places. The problem is that some students dont print them and also they do not purchase the book. Either of the two would be nice. But not having them either is inexcusable.
As mentioned by several of you, I too have noticed that since I switched to powerpoints I do tend to go faster. Every semester I have a detailed calendar for the students, based on previous semesters, from these calendars I have noticed that some chapters are taking less lectures than when I used strictly chalk and board.
I still do use the board a lot, however, some of the younger students have come to expect to have everything in the power points.
I too have evaluations, from the department, the problem is that many times the students do not elaborate on their critiques, just providing a numerical value to each questions ( I should probably create my own). Then again I recently had a comment on one evaluation in which the student said that he did not like the class since one actually "had to read and study to pass".
The movie real genius also came to mind recently. I showed up to class and up until five minutes after class started I only had one student. Very depressing. Half an hour later the class had filled up more, howerver, I think pop quizes are in order.
Thanks again and hope to hear more opinions.
Valdo
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I'm glad you took some time to fill in what the subjects were, I was just warming up to ask you. It is very funny to hear the point of view from the other side of the desk.
If the only criticism you get is forcing people to read and study, I'd say you're doing a great job. FWIW, when I was a college student, I tended to miss many classes as well. I wasn't as obsessed as the average student to get waysted, get baked (those were not synonyms in my day,) or get laid, but I did have a pretty leisurely outlook to most of my days, call it simply, academic inertia. A sort of finding the path of least resistance and lounging my way through it.
A daily pop quiz may be very useful. I think, just a few questions, based off the reading assignment for the day, could jolt a few more dummies into the -- "Oh, I have to read it first" camp. An English Lit. professor did that. He told us, on day one, that a dictionary often has all the answers you need, and we should just carry it and refer to it even for specialized info, for example topics from his class. I never did, it was too heavy. It took a half a dozen quizzes for me to figure out, he meant what he said, and it was absolutely true.
Any other comments from students? Anything like the clarity of your speaking, or the usefulness of your particular powerpoints? I once walked out on a class taught by some mumbling lady professor in a great big lecture hall. She was slowly explaining, in her typical halting mumbling manner, the biochemistry of hemoglobin, and I had just had that topic completely explained in my previous biochemistry class. I tried to sneak out, and she paused as I left. I felt so bad that I'd never explained the whole situation to her.
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I have a question. Why do you care? You show up and give whatever information is necessary. You're job isn't really to make sure they learn the subject. You can only give the information and answer questions. If students want to drop or not read or not do the assignment, thats their choice. Forcing them into pop quizzes or note taking or any other ridiculousness is useless.
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I have a question. Why do you care? You show up and give whatever information is necessary. You're job isn't really to make sure they learn the subject. You can only give the information and answer questions. If students want to drop or not read or not do the assignment, thats their choice. Forcing them into pop quizzes or note taking or any other ridiculousness is useless.
Very true.
Half the teachers i have now, could give a rats ass whether or not you go to class! After all in Canada, college isn't cheap! The teachers still get their paycheque whether or not you show up or not! ;)
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Well, Valdorod: can come back in and give his point of view on the subject, but I don't think instructors are completely immune to being replaced if they can't keep the class full. True enough, there seemed to be two extremes to the continue of college professors, dedicated educators, and royal aresholes, who seemed to be so dedicated to their own research, a confused student might as well crawl off and die instead of ask a question. I only heard about the latter, they were never my instructor.
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The movie real genius also came to mind recently. I showed up to class and up until five minutes after class started I only had one student. Very depressing. Half an hour later the class had filled up more, howerver, I think pop quizes are in order.
I had a prof give a pop quiz due to this once. There were 3 questions:
1) What is your name
2) What is the name of the course
3) What is today's date
He was lenient, I had trouble with #3, but he allowed me to reference the newspapers laying around.
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Why do I care?
I do care, however, I have asked my self the question; Why should I care if the students do not?
I have always taken pride in my work, regardless of what it is. Heck when I used to flip burgers at Jack in the box I would always make sure that my burgers and sandwiches were as close to the picture on the menu as possible, never squeezed, never old vegetables, etc. If I cared about that, imagine about teaching.
Have you ever met a medical doctor, or a grad student, or even a professor and asked: How the heck did you ever get this far? I like to think that those studets that do make it trough my courses actually learned a few critical thinking skills along the way, and that those that did not make it through, did so because of their lack of effort and not because of my deficiencies in teaching.
I am not goint to embelish and tell you a story about preparing the future generation. I think it is more an issue of being selfish and prideful. I would like to be the one that students sign up for my classes because rumor has it that they are goint to learn and not the one that is easy to pass, or do not sign up for his class because he is hard as nails and you won't learn a thing.
Nonetheless, I do feel and have felt that if the students are not putting in their time why should I. The draw back is that it becomes a cycle, they come in unmotivated, I am unwilling to spend time motivating them, and it becomes unbearable. I'va had a couple of classes where I have taken that approach, where I just gave up on them, and well, they in turn give up on me. The couple of times that is has happened, I could not wait for the hour and a half to finish, then I could not wait for the semester to finish. I do not wish to fall back into that, even though I do still do it on ocassion.
Last semester, I was conversing with a couple of colleagues about one of my classes in which no one had managed to earn an A average at the midterm point, when the previous summer, I had a very talented class in which all 26 students were passing and more than half had A's or B's. Both classes were taught from the same set of notes, materials, powerpoints etc. I mentioned that I felt as their failure was a reflection on my teaching. However, (like LQ43) they pointed out that we teach at a CC, where many of the students do not have the background to be taking chemistry; their math is barely at an algebra level, and being a southern border town, many of the students are just learning english, thus language also becomes an issue, and that I should not take their failure as my failure.
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I think every teacher goes through this cycle at some point in their teaching career and probably more than once. Its the chicken and egg question: should students come to class already motivated or is it the teacher's job to motivate the student? How you answer that depends on your own teaching philosophy.
It's easy to teach motivated students and there is satisfaction because its evident that they are learning the material. However these students would probably learn the material from just reading the textbook or with any teaching method and either would have the background skills already or would seek resources to help them learn it. These students will learn but maybe not because of the teacher.
But there is also great satisfaction in reaching out to students who come to class not caring a bit about school or chemistry but who can be just as bright and motivated as the ones above. Then because how you taught a concept and showed every step along the way or connected it to real life or whatever cool thing you did in class turned the light bulb on for them. And many students do well when they feel that the teacher cares that they are learning and maybe why they are at a CC instead of a big university (okay cheap tuition is the other reason). These students will learn BECAUSE of the teacher.
But first you have to get them to come to class so what to do.
Demos are always good and its a plus if you're half-pyromaniac.
Pop quizzes would probably make them more resentful and not motivated in a good way. At least tell them about the quizzes so they can have a chance to pass them. In class activities where they get points just for showing how they solved a problem can help. Basically have points available to them on a weekly basis.
Yes it sounds like high school and alot more work than you think you should have to do at the college level but a CC is that halfway point and maybe for some why they chose it over the big schools.
And if they do well with all work you did for them I think you can claim their success as your success.