[HCB]

Hello, thanks for taking a look at my question(s).

First, this is regarding a real-world application of chemicals to achieve a goal.  This isn't homework for some class I want completed for me.  Second, this has nothing to do with explosives, pyro-technics, or anything which might have deviant-behavior written on it.   

I only know enough to form questions but not enough to solve them on my own.

This is for a real-world application of chemicals to solve a simple problem.  In my reading to learn more before trying a solution to my problem I've run across a problem which I don't know the answer to so I cannot gauge the seriousness of the problem.

My project is to add tire ballast to a tractor.  Wait.  This really involves chemistry. 

The short version is that a common solution is to buy a product called RimGuard which claims to be beet juice.  Wait for it.  Reading the MSDS for the product (http://www.rimguard.biz/Documentation_files/RimguardMaterialSafetyDataSheet137k.pdf) indicates that, under Reactivity, both Incompatibility and Conditions/Materials to Avoid are Strong Oxidizing Agents.

Which ties to: I would like to do a DIY ballast.  Reading a bit about beet juice, it seems to be probably comprised of a large portion of sugar.  Further reading indicates that the addition of sugar to water should a) increase the weight by volume of the solution, b) decrease the freeze point of the solution versus plain water.  Regarding the lowering of the freeze point of solutions of water and sugar (or salt, which is contraindicated in a system with steel involved, of course, so I'm only considering sugar):  http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/print_project_1151_38

Now, finally, the tie-in: on my plasma table I use Sodium Nitrite as a rust inhibitor.  I got the info looking for products to do just that, not an original idea on my part.  It is indicated to be a "strong oxidizer".  Potassium Nitrate (used for black powder and smoke bombs and I'm sure many other uses) is listed as an oxidizer (perhaps strong, but I don't know and the plasma table information led me to Sodium Nitrite).  Sodium nitrite is also used for curing salmon eggs for fishing, according to the first place I purchased some from.  So, it occurs to me: why not add a high-concentration of sugar/water mixture to my tractor tires (IIRC from chemistry class, sugar dissolves into water without increasing (at least significantly) the volume of the mixture over pure water as the sugar is dissolved into the gaps in the water molecules...don't crucify me...that's what I remember from school and that's been 20 years ago).

So, adding sugar to the water I put in the tractor tires should gain me, perhaps significant, weight over plain water, and lower the freeze point.  Good deal.  But I worry about corrosion inhibition (the RimGuard (beet juice, reportedly) claims it has "natural corrosion protection", or words to that effect).  So, I think, "what can I do to fight/prevent corrosion of the steel wheels?"  Well, if sodium nitrite works for my plasma table, and it does seem to work well, then why can't I add sodium nitrite to the solution of sugar water I put in my tractor tires?  Wait!  If the RimGuard (beet juice) is mostly sugar water, why does the MSDS claim it's incompatible with Strong Oxidizing Agents?  It's all in liquid mixture/solution...what can happen?

I mean, is a solution of sugar water mixed with a "strong oxidizer" like sodium nitrite going to degrade/decompose/do something which eats steel...or rubber...or explodes?  Why would they list on the MSDS for a product which I believe, but do not know for sure, is basically sugar water, that it is incompatible with strong oxidizers?  Unless it's CYA in case the liquid leaks out, the water evaporates, and you're left with a little crystallized mixture of sugar and oxidizer...spread all over the place.

Again...I know just enough to form some questions...not enough to know if the questions are even legit.  I'm sorry.  That's why I'm here seeking help from those who know.

In summary: I want to add liquid ballast to my tractor tires.  I am looking for a DIY, and inexpensive way to do this.  I want the liquid to not eat (that's a technical chemistry term, thank you) the steel wheels (or the rubber tires).  I would like the liquid to not freeze or thicken appreciably or slush until below about 10 deg F (RV antifreeze claims to be burst-proof to -50 (or lower, depending on the variety) but it will slush around 10-20F); I won't be using the tractor if it gets below 10F and, in north central Texas, it rarely gets below 20F anyway.  I would like to enhance the weight by adding a cheap product in solution which will lower the freeze point and also not corrode the steel (so, no adding salt (NaCl) to the water).  If sugar water is not naturally non-corrosive, then I'd like to add a product which will make it non-corrosive, hence my run back to what I do with the plasma table and sodium nitrite.

Thank you for your time (again)...especially if you read this far.  It's a long read and I'm not sure I presented my problem well. 

--HC

[HCB]

I see that I apparently posted in the wrong forum.  I'm sorry, no offense intended.

Thank you.

--HC

[Borek]

At low temperatures solubility of sugars goes down, so you risk slushing if you don't get your concentration right. Could be any solution that is reasonably dense for your purposes will be slushing (to get the density higher by 10% you need a 24% w/w syrup).

Nitrites are not oxidizing agents, nitrates are. These are two different things, they somehow got confused either by you or by whoever prepared the MSDA. So using nitrite to prevent corrosion should not be a problem. (Actually nitrites are good at preventing corrosion as they are good at reducing things, which is an opposition to oxidation).

[billnotgatez]

My powers to GOOGLE and general searching have eluded me tonight so I am going to give conjecture.

I assume the producer of the product wanted to increase the density of water and to mitigate rusting. They decided to take something that was relatively inexpensive and non-toxic. So they processed some beet juice. But the beet juice would be attacked by microbes so they put a preservative in it that could be a nitrite. They may have added more stuff in it that was non-toxic as well to enhance other characteristics. I assume they fiddled with various proportions until they got the best final product.

As far as the oxidizer thing, sugar will react in solution. Salts may be less reactive but can be corrosive.

So if you want to try to make a similar product yourself, be prepared to do some tinkering.

My best guess.

[HCB]

At low temperatures solubility of sugars goes down, so you risk slushing if you don't get your concentration right. Could be any solution that is reasonably dense for your purposes will be slushing (to get the density higher by 10% you need a 24% w/w syrup).

Nitrites are not oxidizing agents, nitrates are. These are two different things, they somehow got confused either by you or by whoever prepared the MSDA. So using nitrite to prevent corrosion should not be a problem. (Actually nitrites are good at preventing corrosion as they are good at reducing things, which is an opposition to oxidation).

Thank you for your reply.

I may be wrong about what I've read but I rarely make a stupid mistake about -ites versus -ates.  I paid some attention in Chemistry and I may not be able to explain in essay-form the difference between an -ite and an -ate, but I do know there is a difference which can be significant.  FWIW, FYI.  I do make mistakes, to be sure, but I usually get this kind of detail right...at least in the naming if not in the chemical difference.

Some testing will be required, apparently, to be sure that a certain mixture will not slush.  I'll cogitate on this.

I "learned" that Sodium Nitrite is an oxidizer from my reading of the labels on the products which I purchased.  For instance, a listing of Sodium Nitrite I just found on eBay (a seller I've not bought from) lists it as a "strong oxidizing agent": 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-x-10-lb-Food-Grade-Sodium-Nitrite-NaNO2-99-Free-Flowing-Granular-FCC-/230735658041?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b8eabc39

The first batch of Sodium Nitrite I bought was Pro-Cure Sodium Nitrite for curing salmon eggs:

http://pro-cure.com/store/bait-scent-products/egg-cures/sodium-nitrite-2-lb.html

The label (which can be seen up-close on that site) indicates it is a "powerful oxidizer".

Those examples are the basis for me calling sodium nitrite (not nitrate) an oxidizing agent.  If I've misunderstood something, there are the links and please explain what I've done wrong.  I would like to know this stuff better.

Thank you.

--HC

[Archer]

Nitrites are not oxidizing agents, nitrates are.

I am sorry to say so Borek but this is one of the extremely rare occasions where you are wrong. 

HCB is correct, nitrites are oxidisers. Granted not to the same extent as nitrates but they do oxidise organic material. My only experience of this is synthesis of 1,2-diketones from monoketones.

See also
 Metal nitrite: a powerful oxidizing reagent.
Baidya M, et al.
J Am Chem Soc. 2011 Sep 7;133(35):13880-2. doi: 10.1021/ja206736q.

[HCB]

My powers to GOOGLE and general searching have eluded me tonight so I am going to give conjecture.

I assume the producer of the product wanted to increase the density of water and to mitigate rusting. They decided to take something that was relatively inexpensive and non-toxic. So they processed some beet juice. But the beet juice would be attacked by microbes so they put a preservative in it that could be a nitrite. They may have added more stuff in it that was non-toxic as well to enhance other characteristics. I assume they fiddled with various proportions until they got the best final product.

As far as the oxidizer thing, sugar will react in solution. Salts may be less reactive but can be corrosive.

So if you want to try to make a similar product yourself, be prepared to do some tinkering.

My best guess.

Thank you for your reply and time.

I'm for sure that someone found a use for an either useless or limited-use by product.  Similar to the guy who invented the apple-something rain coats in England about 100 years or more ago; that guy took coal-tar and used it to water-proof two layers of fabric, IIRC what I saw on Connections about 20 years ago.  Connections was a great PBS or PBC or something show.

Regardless, yes, I'm sure it is a cool use for an either undesireable by-product or a cool use for a cheap product.

Microbes might be, depending on which microbes you're worried about, easily handled with the addition of Physan-20 or a similar product.  For my plasma table, the recipe I found listed the use of Sodium Nitrite and Physan-20 to mitigate, respectively, rust and bacteria. 

http://www.plasmaspider.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=572#p1144

I have some Physan-20 for that purpose and can add some to the mix.  It claims to be a Bacteriacide, Fungicide, Viruscide, and something else, IIRC.  It is supposed to kill all kinds of junk which might grow in a stagnant body of water.

I'm thinking (wishing/hoping?) that a mixture of water (for weight, and DUH!), sugar (for not being corrosive and weight and lower freeze-point), Physan-20 (to keep the "bugs" in check (like in a waterbed), and sodium nitrite (corrosion inhibitor) will yield a solution to ballast my tires. 

My concern is that the warning on the, reportedly, beet juice product (RimGuard) states that, under Reactivity, strong oxidizers should be avoided:

http://www.rimguard.biz/rim-guard-material-safety-data-sheet/

I use Sodium Nitrite in the water on my plasma table to prevent rust of the table.  I read that it is a strong/powerful oxidizer.  I would like to add water to a steel wheels/tires and not corrode the steel wheel and also not freeze below about 20F.  It seems logical to add water (weight) plus sugar (additional weight/volume and to lower the freezepoint), plus Physan-20 to control fungus/ bacterial, plus sodium nitrite as a rust inhibitor.

But I wonder about the addition of a "powerful oxidizer" in the presence of sugar water.

Tbhands for your time and help.

--HC

[Archer]

When you consider oxidation in it's most basic principal, loss of electrons, then an oxidiser is an electron acceptor. In which case lots of materials are oxidants, including CO₂.

The title of the paper I listed is erroneous , it should read "effective" or "versatile" not "powerful". "Powerful" implies that it will accept electrons extremely readily from a variety of substrates.

To summarise, if you mix a powerful oxidant with sugar then it will oxidise the sugar, in some cases this would be in an uncontrolled manner.

Nitrite may not cause such an uncontrolled oxidation but given the correct conditions it may change the chemical structure of whatever it is mixed with. I can't go into too much detail without violating forum rules.

Check the incompatibility section of any MSDS for metal nitrites.

[Borek]

I am sorry to say so Borek but this is one of the extremely rare occasions where you are wrong.

No need to be sorry. I am perfectly aware of the fact I don't know everything, I am much closer to knowing nothing.

HCB is correct, nitrites are oxidisers. Granted not to the same extent as nitrates but they do oxidise organic material. My only experience of this is synthesis of 1,2-diketones from monoketones.

Interesting.

Judging from your comment I guess that could make an episode of Breaking bad

Still, as you signaled - sugar/nitrite mixture is far from being dangerous the way sugar/nitrate mixture is. It won't turn the tractor into rocket nor Eyjafjallajökull sized smoke bomb. If I guess correctly, at worst you risk nitrite would be consumed and it would no longer exist to inhibit corrosion.

[Archer]

I am much closer to knowing nothing.

I am not normally the competitive type, but I am closer to that than you

[billnotgatez]

@HCB

Microbes might be, depending on which microbes you're worried about, easily handled with the addition of Physan-20 or a similar product.

There are several ways to prevent microbe activity with sugars.
Each with their positive and negative attributes.
Relative cost is one of those attributes that may be taken into account when selecting an option.
Another attribute may be that one product may be a food additive and the other product not be considered a food additive.

As an aside you might review information on line about nitrites and nitrates.
WIKI seems to provide some good information.
WIKI did not have any information on Physan-20.

@everyone who has posted here
WIKI states

Nitrite can be oxidized or reduced, with the product somewhat dependent on the oxidizing/reducing agent and its strength.

That would imply to me that the reducing effect or oxidizing effect would be dependent on how reducing or oxidizing sugar is.
I guess we can view the relationship between the beet juice and nitrites as NOT being

Strong Oxidizing Agents

[HCB]

I am much closer to knowing nothing.

I am not normally the competitive type, but I am closer to that than you

Your and Borek's lack of hubris is appreciated.  I, too, understand that I do not know everything.  It's always nice to work with others on a problem when the "others" don't believe they know it all.

Again, thanks to all who take time to try to help me with my problem.

--HC

[HCB]

@HCB

Microbes might be, depending on which microbes you're worried about, easily handled with the addition of Physan-20 or a similar product.

There are several ways to prevent microbe activity with sugars.
Each with their positive and negative attributes.
Relative cost is one of those attributes that may be taken into account when selecting an option.
Another attribute may be that one product may be a food additive and the other product not be considered a food additive.

As an aside you might review information on line about nitrites and nitrates.
WIKI seems to provide some good information.
WIKI did not have any information on Physan-20.

@everyone who has posted here
WIKI states

Nitrite can be oxidized or reduced, with the product somewhat dependent on the oxidizing/reducing agent and its strength.

That would imply to me that the reducing effect or oxidizing effect would be dependent on how reducing or oxidizing sugar is.
I guess we can view the relationship between the beet juice and nitrites as NOT being

Strong Oxidizing Agents

Thank you for your reply.

This project is not very large.  I have only two tires to fill.  The long-term product is to address my needs and then to pass along my experiences to the tractor crowd at TractorByNet.com (the "world").  I would like to find a DIY solution which is cheaper than buying a comercial product and in the process learn something.   

That there are complexities is a given.  That is why I am here asking questions.  I do not intend that to be rude or mean.

I would like, in a perfect world, there to be an answer which involves water, sugar, Physan-20, and sodium nitrite because I either have them or they are readily available.  The cost from the dealership for adding RimGuard is $510 (unspecified whether that is on location or if I have to take the tractor to them).  Not a lot of money.  But, if I can come up with a way to do this home-brew (DIY), it would help me and who knows how many others with the information published on the web.

The mixture of chemicals has me worried, particularly the Reactivity statement for RimGuard about oxidizers...IF sugar is a main component of the RimGuard and it warns about oxidizers then I should be concerned about sugar water with an oxidizer, and since my personal answer to oxidation is the additon of a "strong oxidizer" sodium nitrite I worry about what will happen.

There are considerations like: my plasma table never shows fungus or green gunk or off-smelling whatever despite the fact that I have changed (on rolling rotation) the water at least twice over three years, so the Physan-20 may not be an important factor.  The sodium nitrite might be unnecessary if the natural order of sugar water is non-corrosive.

I don't know any of this, which is, of course, why I'm here asking questions.  Again, I don't mean or intend any offense.

The long-term goal isn't to save me money (although it is desirable), it's to (maybe) find a cheap DIY solution to my problem which will help others.  Research people trying to ballast tires with liquid. 

Thank you, again, for your time and reply.

--HC

[billnotgatez]

Your idea of using Physan-20 in beet juice may have greater function than the commercial product. But, it may not qualify as non toxic.
From what I see, the using of nitrites (not nitrates) appears NOT to be likely as a "strong oxidizer" and is considered non-toxic. But, from a DIY point of view the importance of non toxic may be over doing it and something that is just an irritant may be sufficient.
We do not know all the tinkering the company did to perfect their product.
For instance they may have boiled the beet juice to get greater concentration of sugar and to get rid of all the microbes before putting in preservatives.
Nor, do we know what other things are in the product.
I am surprised that when the company put non toxic on the label that the MSDS did not show the specific ingredients with only approximate concentrations. But, I guess they stayed within legal guidelines.
You can do tests on a small sample basis to see how your mixture holds up to the needs. I think you may have come to a point that enough thinking has been done and testing may prove the quality of your ideas.
Be Safe

Important note
If you share this with fellow tractor people let them know that your mixture does not technically comply with non toxic.
Be Safe and do no harm
http://www.physan.com/Resources/MSDS-Physan%2020.pdf
Bill

[curiouscat]

 Similar to the guy who invented the apple-something rain coats in England about 100 years or more ago;

Are you by chance refering to a "Macintosh" 

Apple-something is anachronistically awesome.