May 09, 2024, 05:28:05 PM
Forum Rules: Read This Before Posting


Topic: Carbonyl Reactivity  (Read 4603 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline decoys

  • New Member
  • **
  • Posts: 4
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Carbonyl Reactivity
« on: November 17, 2013, 11:22:11 AM »
hi I need help for the following question that I got wrong. I thought that the the dial would react the fastest since it has 2 carbonyls to react with. In the question it says that aldehydes and ketones are less reactive than acid chlorides and anhydrides, so I ranked them accordingly, yet I still don't get why I got the question wrong. Should the acetic propionic anhydride come after the dial?  :-\

Offline Archer

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1001
  • Mole Snacks: +85/-20
  • Gender: Male
Re: Carbonyl Reactivity
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2013, 12:28:34 PM »
Why do you think a dialdehyde would be more reactive than a mono-aldehyde?

“ I love him. He's hops. He's barley. He's protein. He's a meal. ”

Denis Leary.

Offline decoys

  • New Member
  • **
  • Posts: 4
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: Carbonyl Reactivity
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2013, 01:19:55 PM »
Why do you think a dialdehyde would be more reactive than a mono-aldehyde?

wouldn't the reactivity increase with more carbonyl groups on a molecule since there are 2 carbonyl groups for a nucleophile to attack?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 01:58:58 PM by decoys »

Offline Archer

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1001
  • Mole Snacks: +85/-20
  • Gender: Male
Re: Carbonyl Reactivity
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2013, 02:11:30 PM »
No, you still have an aldehyde (albeit on at each end of the molecule). The only way the reactivity of a C=O bond towards a nucleophile is altered is by stearic or electronic effects of neighboring groups.

I doubt that having two aldehydes so far apart isn't going to change either of these factors in any significant way.
“ I love him. He's hops. He's barley. He's protein. He's a meal. ”

Denis Leary.

Offline decoys

  • New Member
  • **
  • Posts: 4
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: Carbonyl Reactivity
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2013, 03:51:55 PM »
No, you still have an aldehyde (albeit on at each end of the molecule). The only way the reactivity of a C=O bond towards a nucleophile is altered is by stearic or electronic effects of neighboring groups.

I doubt that having two aldehydes so far apart isn't going to change either of these factors in any significant way.

so a mono-aldehyde would react at the same speed as a di-aldehyde? :s

Offline Archer

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1001
  • Mole Snacks: +85/-20
  • Gender: Male
Re: Carbonyl Reactivity
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2013, 04:12:05 PM »
In your molecule any differences in reactivity relative to a mono-aldehyde would be negligible, the two carbonyls are separated by three σ bonds.
“ I love him. He's hops. He's barley. He's protein. He's a meal. ”

Denis Leary.

Offline orgopete

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2636
  • Mole Snacks: +213/-71
    • Curved Arrow Press
Re: Carbonyl Reactivity
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2013, 12:59:04 AM »
Why do you think a dialdehyde would be more reactive than a mono-aldehyde?

Since a mono-aldehyde was not a choice, I presume this is meant to ask why butanedial should be more reactive than acetyl chloride.
Author of a multi-tiered example based workbook for learning organic chemistry mechanisms.

Offline Archer

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1001
  • Mole Snacks: +85/-20
  • Gender: Male
Re: Carbonyl Reactivity
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2013, 01:10:18 AM »
Why do you think a dialdehyde would be more reactive than a mono-aldehyde?

Since a mono-aldehyde was not a choice, I presume this is meant to ask why butanedial should be more reactive than acetyl chloride.

No, I was pertaining to what if the question was worded differently to replace butanedial with,say, butanal how would this change the answer provided.

I thought that the the dial would react the fastest since it has 2 carbonyls to react with. In the question it says that aldehydes and ketones are less reactive than acid chlorides and anhydrides
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 01:41:01 AM by Archer »
“ I love him. He's hops. He's barley. He's protein. He's a meal. ”

Denis Leary.

Offline orgopete

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2636
  • Mole Snacks: +213/-71
    • Curved Arrow Press
Re: Carbonyl Reactivity
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2013, 09:20:23 AM »

No, I was pertaining to what if the question was worded differently to replace butanedial with,say, butanal how would this change the answer provided.


Yes, but I noticed the poster had the dialdehyde reacting faster than acetyl chloride. If the poster missed that, why would you think they would be able to answer your hypothetical question?
Author of a multi-tiered example based workbook for learning organic chemistry mechanisms.

Offline Archer

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1001
  • Mole Snacks: +85/-20
  • Gender: Male
Re: Carbonyl Reactivity
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2013, 09:42:35 AM »
Is it is fair to say that we may have interpreted why the poster made this error in different ways?

I get the impression that you think they misread the question.

I thought that they believed that a dialdehyde would have a greatly increased reactivity due to having twice as many functional groups on the molecule and therefore would be the most active of all. 

I thought (possibly incorrectly) that if they could see that there was no difference between the reactivity of an aldehyde and a dialdehyde of this type then logical progression would allow them to order their anwers correctly.

I apologise for any confusion that my responses may have caused.
“ I love him. He's hops. He's barley. He's protein. He's a meal. ”

Denis Leary.

Sponsored Links