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Topic: Unknown metal and gas  (Read 12002 times)

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Offline Borek

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Re: Unknown metal and gas
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2012, 04:24:45 AM »
You should write down reactions of unknown metal oxidation separately - each reaction contains one product of reduction of nitric acid.

Interesting idea - but looks like it leads nowhere. Assuming Mn2+ is being produced each time, and the gas mixture (I am assuming STP) contains 0.026 moles of NO2, 0.014 moles of N2O and 0.027 moles of H2, total mass of manganese dissolved is 1.48+3.08+0.714=5.27g, less than 6.714g given in the question.

But as you have already noted, hydrogen is a very unlikely product in these conditions, as it reduces the nitric acid. That means products are rather unpredictable.
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Offline Hunter2

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Re: Unknown metal and gas
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2012, 05:14:26 AM »
N2O as well is unlikely. NO2 can be formed.

Offline AWK

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Re: Unknown metal and gas
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2012, 05:46:08 AM »
Nitrous oxide cannot optained by dissolving a metal in nitric acid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide

The same with hydrogen. It will not survive in oxidising process. Only the solution is very diluted, but 25% is still half concentrated acid.
2 HNO3 + 8 HCl + 4 SnCl2 → 5 H2O + 4 SnCl4 + N2O
This is the reaction from wikipedia link given by Hunter2
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Offline AWK

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Re: Unknown metal and gas
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2012, 06:58:00 AM »
I am using Na as example, but in analogy this eventually leads to equivalents of unknown metal.
3Na + 4HNO3 = 3NaNO3 + NO + 2H2O
8Na + 10HNO3 = 8NaNO3 + N2O + 5H2O
10Na + 12HNO3 = 10NaNO3 + N2 + 6H2O
Only these 3 reactions above should be taken into account since these gases are poorly soluble in water.
Traces (but only traces) of hydrogen can be detected in gaseous mixture only only if acid was very diluted and reaction not mixed. But problem is still unsolvable!
4Na + 6HNO3 = 4NaNO3 + N2O3 + 3H2O
Na + 2HNO3 = NaNO3 + NO2 + H2O
N2O3 and NO2 are soluble in water (25 % HNO3 contains it), moreover water is produced in each reaction - both react with water).
8Na + 10HNO3 = 8NaNO3 + NH4NO3 + 3H2O
This reaction can be expected only in diluted acid.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 07:08:06 AM by AWK »
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Offline Borek

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Re: Unknown metal and gas
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2012, 06:59:05 AM »
2 HNO3 + 8 HCl + 4 SnCl2 → 5 H2O + 4 SnCl4 + N2O
This is the reaction from wikipedia link given by Hunter2

Technically it is not a metal dissolution, but reduction with tin(II) chloride.
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Offline Borek

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Re: Unknown metal and gas
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2012, 07:18:13 AM »
3Na + 4HNO3 = 3NaNO3 + NO + 2H2O
8Na + 10HNO3 = 8NaNO3 + N2O + 5H2O
10Na + 12HNO3 = 10NaNO3 + N2 + 6H2O

As I wrote earlier - this approach (with Mn2+ being a product) shows only 5.27g of the Mn is dissolved, so it doesn't fit the answer given.

I don't get your last equation - while technically it is balanced, we don't have nitrogen between products. Did you mean H2?
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Offline AWK

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Re: Unknown metal and gas
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2012, 07:52:20 AM »
Quote
I don't get your last equation - while technically it is balanced, we don't have nitrogen between products. Did you mean H2?
As I wrote previously hydrogen in the presence of medium concentrated nitric acid is imposible. Hydrogen is an idea of Raderford - not information from data.
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Offline Borek

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Re: Unknown metal and gas
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2012, 08:14:32 AM »
As I wrote previously hydrogen in the presence of medium concentrated nitric acid is imposible. Hydrogen is an idea of Raderford - not information from data.

Yes, it is impossible, no, it is not Raderford's random idea - it IS from the data. Assuming STP and given composition of the gas mixture, molar mass of the gas A can be calculated to be 2. It makes it hydrogen, doesn't it?
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Offline Rutherford

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Re: Unknown metal and gas
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2012, 10:16:15 AM »
Hydrogen is the gas A in the answer.
I don't have any more idea here. If someone by some logic way calculates that the metal should be Mn, it would be nice to show it.

Offline AWK

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Re: Unknown metal and gas
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2012, 05:27:21 PM »
36 years I am  fighting with students that they write reactions with nitric acid without hydrogen or hydrogen sulfide as a product of reaction. Unfortunately some textbooks exist with such horrible errors and my hard  work is still useless.
The next problem is rounding intermediate results to one or two significant digits (as Hunter2 did). This also may cause  horrible errors. Rounding is the last mathematical operation in our calculations!
Of course in this problem from these data  the molsr mass  of unknown gas is 2.(but in real chemistry this cannot be hydrogen).

3Na + 4 HNO3 = 3NaNO3 + NO + 2H2O
8Na + 10 HNO3 = 8NaNO3 + N2O + 5H2O
2Na + 2HNO3 = 2NaNO3 + H2
After identification numer of moles of all gases we can calculate number of equivalents of monovalent “element” (3 x moles of NO + 8 x moles of N2O + 2 x moles of H2). Dividing mass of metal by number of equivalents we will get mass of one equivalent. Equivalent multiplied by 1, 2, 3 … should give  the mass of real element.
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Offline Rutherford

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Re: Unknown metal and gas
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2012, 05:56:24 AM »
This gives the nearest answer to Mn (I got 55.49g/mole, near to Fe, too). Probably this problem was meant to be solved this way, so thank you AWK.

Offline Borek

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Re: Unknown metal and gas
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2012, 07:29:59 AM »
0.026 moles of NO2

Sigh, should be NO. That's why I was getting incorrect results.
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