Chemical Forums
General Forums => Generic Discussion => Topic started by: constant thinker on January 26, 2006, 09:13:10 PM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/27/national/27tunnel.html
http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-01-26-voa88.cfm
This topic mainly applies to americans, but what do you guys think about the Mexico Border issue? It seams lately that there have been Mexican army incursions into the U.S. and with the recent discovery of the tunnel.
For the first article,
I have to wonder how many more tunnels are like this and how long things like this have been happening. It's a crazy and horrible thing. I leave in the Northeast, but drugs will and still do find there way up here from Mexico. My friend recently acquired some weed that supposedly came out of Mexico. I also don't think Mexico is of any help with the border issues. They seam to be encouraging illegal immigration.
For the second article,
Sounds like the Mexican army is forgetting which side of the border is theirs. This shows that if these really are official army personal, because there is a possibility they aren't, the Mexican Government is encouraging and helping illegal immigration.
Mark Kness, I would really like to hear from you since you live in Texas. Mitch your from California right? If you are I'd like to hear from you also.
More Mexican Border articles:
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=Mexican+Border&btnG=Search+News
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Edit: I don't think there was any content here that didn't violate the registration agreement. :P
Mitch
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It is very unlikely, IMHO, that any Mexican 'soldiers' were real soldiers acting on any orders from the Mexican goverment.
They MAY have been actual soldiers who were 'freelancing' for drug smugglers (and disobeying orders while doing so), or they just might have had army uniforms. The Mexican goverment would never approve that, but they do not have the power to eliminate corruption, unfortunately.
With all the US residents wanting to buy various forbidden 'chemicals', the amount of money involved is just too much for there to be any realistic chance of stopping it. It is too easy to bribe people (Customs, police, soldiers(?), etc.). Mexico is also unfortunate in that they have a long history of police and other corruption, even before drugs became an issue, which makes it even easier to bribe officials.
Attempts to outlaw things don't always make them go away. Instead, these things may just go underground, and then be out of anybody's ability to control or moderate.
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As far as the soldier story goes, Mark Kness, your thinking what I was suspecting. I just really have no clue.
Very ummnn intresting Limpet. I guess you don't like Mexico's exports so to say.
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Based on the appearance of where the USA politics is heading, I see the southern border issues being addressed more conservatively. Thus one would suspect that there is going to be tightening of that border and any incidents associated with that border highlighted. Thus you are going to hear a lot more since FOX will put more of an emphasis on it and all the radio talk shows will bring it up incessantly. Therefore, the issue will be seen as a number 1 problem. Note that we have lots of number one problems depending on what politician or media source you listen to.
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Note that we have lots of number one problems depending on what politician or media source you listen to.
That's not an American specialty ;)
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Worry more about the border patrol and policies. For example, are you aware that when the border patrol "catches" an illegal immigrant, the immigrant is processed using whatever ID the immigrant wants to provide and a court date is set 30 days in the future. The immigrant is released IN THE US and gives a "gentlemen's agreement" to show up in court. Of course no immigrant ever does. There are large communities of illegal immigrants working in the US and not paying taxes. If "terrorism" was a real problem, then the US would have caved in destructively by a civil war by now. The bigger problem is the loss of manufacturing jobs and the wasting of billions of dollars on "terrorism" and "drug abuse". Don't give the US government any more excuses to waste money. Get rid of lawyers and ACLU reps that prevent any type of effective policy from being used.
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The immigrant is released IN THE US and gives a "gentlemen's agreement" to show up in court. Of course no immigrant ever does.
You would need a pretty good lawyer to get that done, I think that has a way of weening out the individuals of interest
The bigger problem is the loss of manufacturing jobs
The economy is a service economy not a manufacturing one. The jobs will be lost in manufacturing to cheaper labor pools around the world, its just the trend of the economy.
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Worry more about the border patrol and policies. For example, are you aware that when the border patrol "catches" an illegal immigrant, the immigrant is processed using whatever ID the immigrant wants to provide and a court date is set 30 days in the future. The immigrant is released IN THE US and gives a "gentlemen's agreement" to show up in court. Of course no immigrant ever does. There are large communities of illegal immigrants working in the US and not paying taxes. If "terrorism" was a real problem, then the US would have caved in destructively by a civil war by now. The bigger problem is the loss of manufacturing jobs and the wasting of billions of dollars on "terrorism" and "drug abuse". Don't give the US government any more excuses to waste money. Get rid of lawyers and ACLU reps that prevent any type of effective policy from being used.
a lot of the stuff that you said is not accurate. first of there are immigrants that do pay taxes, but by being immigrants they do not get any refunds, and are in a way paying to get deported. and if they pay taxes they might get deported, just think about it, it is illegal for them to work, so if they declare that they work they are, if a certain law passes, commiting a felony, it may not be a good idea to pay taxes if you are going to be charged with a felony for doing so. Rememmber they are human being they have to work, and its not like they are getting a high pay, they are getting a lower pay, they are in many cases being cheated out of their money because technically they are not supposed to work so its easier for an employer to steal money or not pay them because there is nothing that the immigrant can do. and if they do get paid, its not as much as you may be thinking. In many cases the jobs that they work for are generally jobs that would not be taken by a US citizen because of safety and low paying issues.
Take this into consideration, if we outlaw immigration all of a sudden the chances for a terrorist to hide are very high, since there are allready 11 million undocumented immigrants (estimated), it means that the terrorist can hide in a group of 11 million people, but if we make immigration legal, it means that there would be no reason for someone not to be able to identify themselves, it destroys the illigal immigration business, and it makes it easier to protect against terrorism since we would be able to know who is in this country and who is not. There we have taken care of two major problems by allowing something. But then that would mean that immigrants do not have to be afraid of paying their taxes, or of getting deported for doing, well anything for that matter, since if they are arrested for any reason, even if not their fault, they may be deported. The cost of deporting immigrants is estimated at $41 billion "The study estimates that it would cost about $28 billion per year to apprehend illegal immigrants, $6 billion a year to detain them, $500 million for extra beds, $4 billion to secure borders, $2 million to legally process them and $1.6 billion to bus or fly them home." according to the washington post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/25/AR2005072501605.html
The reason that we have immigration is because immigration is illegal, it makes a business that is, though illegal, highly profitable, which means that immigrants can get in easily, and that illegal documentation becomes a profitable business for any one with the knowledge of how to do it.
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The economy is a service economy not a manufacturing one. The jobs will be lost in manufacturing to cheaper labor pools around the world, its just the trend of the economy.
Mitch! You nailed just what I've been thinking about the U.S. economy. If I didn't have a big french test tommorow I would look up job statistics. The U.S. economy is moving to a service based ones. Although manufacturing jobs are being lost left and right, service jobs are showing up left and right. Sure services like customer support are being out sourced, but everything has exceptions and the general trend is to the service job market growing.
3.3.141592653 raises the point that it would be unbelievably expensive to round up all of the illegals. I think the best solution would probably just to build a 10ft high wall that goes 5 ft deep to prevent digging it out. This idea is improbable though. The U.S. just needs to do some policy changing and rethinking. How and what I'm not to sure. It makes you think though if people can come across illegally so easy, then what is to stop terrorists from coming across and say bringing bomb making materials forbidden in the U.S.
As far as the ACLU and lawyers goes I have no comment. Although the ACLU seams like a very powerful organization.
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Pi,
NOTHING that I have said is inaccurate. Read up and actually cross the Mexican US border if you don't believe me and actually have the courage. You sound like you are speaking mumbo-jumbo from the perspective of a person who has never had a job and never actually paid taxes.
In many cases the jobs that they work for are generally jobs that would not be taken by a US citizen because of safety and low paying issues.
YOU are inaccurate about US workers not wanting these jobs. This is US employer based propaganda so that they do not have to pay social security taxes or healthcare costs. An illegal immigrant can not pay taxes or else they would be deported. Furthermore, as advice to potential other illegal immigrants, don't pay $10,000 to a "coyote", just get on a plane and say you're coming for a vacation and never leave, it will save you about $9,000 US dolllars.
As far as the money wasting, observe the events leading up to the Soviet Union economic collapse.
1. Ronald Reagan BS's about a "Star Wars" defense plan forcing the Soviet Union to spend on defense.
2. Bin Laden supports a 10 year war against the Soviet Union with US backing in Ahfganistan.
The parallel that is currently occurring in the US is striking. The US dumps billions of dollars into Iraq. Bin Laden assists in insurgency. The ultimate goal is the collapse of the US economy, not necessarily a military defeat.
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According to my uncle who lives in California, he says that during the harvesting times for different crops there are tons of Mexicans around and they pick the crops. I don't think many Americans want to do this. If you were to give someone the option of picking crops for $10 an hour or working in a cubicle for $10 an hour, I think most would pick the cubicle. This is only hypothetical because you probably wouldn't be payed $10 an hour to pick crops. So they do take some jobs that most Americans would prefer not to have given a choice.
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I don't think many Americans want to do this
Are Mexicans not Americans?
Why don't Americans want to pick crops?
I think most would pick the cubicle
Do you mean an office cubicle? (this is quite blatantly a huge generalisation, don't you think?)
I would do it, $US 10 is AUS$ 13.30 not too bad for outdoor work.
So they do take some jobs that most Americans would prefer not to have given a choice.
What jobs do "most Americans" want?
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Are Mexicans not Americans?
Of course they are not, they are Mexicans.
They usually make less than $5 dollars an hour.
Most Americans frown on manual labor jobs as a whole.
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Of course they are not, they are Mexicans.
This article says that Mexico is in North America ???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico
Most Americans frown on manual labor jobs as a whole.
That's a pity. So how does anything ever get done?
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Typically only US citizens are called Americans. Things get done by the cheap foreign labor we import or by outsourcing jobs to other countries that hae a cheaper labor force.
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By outsourcing your labour do Americans feel they are getting a better quality product or worse? In Australia we have lots of support to buy "Australian made" products etc. Australia has quite a skilled labour force so we know we are getting a quality product if it is made here and not overseas. I guess what I mean is does cheap labour mean cheap quality American products and are Americans happy with this?
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Typically only US citizens are called Americans.
This is a sore point for many citizens of all the nations from Mexico on south... From their perspective, 'America' means the continents of North America, Central America and South America, and is *definitely* more than the USA. For a USA citizen to call himself an 'American' is to either dismiss the rest of the hemisphere or claim it all for the USA, either of which are annoying. If you tell somebody in Mexico that you are an 'American' (when you mean from the USA) you are likely to offend them.
That said, I think that Europeans (and probably many others) freely say 'Americans' when they mean 'USA-ans'. There actually isn't any convenient word for 'United States-ian'.
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This is a sore point for many citizens of all the nations from Mexico on south... From their perspective, 'America' means the continents of North America, Central America and South America, and is *definitely* more than the USA. For a USA citizen to call himself an 'American' is to either dismiss the rest of the hemisphere or claim it all for the USA, either of which are annoying. If you tell somebody in Mexico that you are an 'American' (when you mean from the USA) you are likely to offend them.
This is what I thought when I wrote my first post. I have alsways been taught that the Americas included North, Central and South too.
There actually isn't any convenient word for 'United States-ian'.
It would be convenient to use American if people from the USA didn't feel they were somehow different to the rest of the Americas ;)
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That said, I think that Europeans freely say 'Americans' when they mean 'USA-ans'.
Confirming :)