Chemical Forums
Specialty Chemistry Forums => Biochemistry and Chemical Biology Forum => Topic started by: Jfalken on March 30, 2021, 05:32:03 AM
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So we have all been told that the parietal cells secrete HCl to the stomach yet I have yet to see a reaction formula that shows that H+ + Cl- --> HCl in the body.
All I ever see is protons being excreted into the lumen and that Cl- is there too.
But nowhere have I seen that HCl is actually formed.
To have solvatized ions in the lumen does not count as HCl as they are, as stated, solvatized.
Have I missed something here?
A rxn or similar?
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I think that the problem lies the interpretation of what it means to make HCl. IMO, the presence of hydrogen ions and chloride ions counts as HCl, but YMMV.
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Generally speaking there is no such thing as "HCl in water". It immediately dissociates into H+ and Cl-, so any solution containing these two (from whatever source) is identical to the solution prepared by dissolving HCl in water.
This is not much different from other solutions. Imagine a solution that is 0.1 M in Na+, 0.1 M in K+, 0.1 M in Cl- and 0.1 M in Br-. Is it a solution of 0.1 M NaCl and 0.1 M KBr, or 0.1 M NaBr and 0.1 M KCl? Or perhaps neither and the question about which salts are dissolved doesn't make much sense, as it is ions present that matter, not the way the solution was made?
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If I take water, and I put NaCl into it so I get the chloride ions in the water and then I add protons (from any random source), then according to your definition I should have HCl containing solution because there are Cl ions and an excess of protons..
I do not really agree with you here.
If textbooks wants to say that we PRODUCE HCl acid then I want to see a reaction mechanism showing that HCl is formed.
If the protons originates from a different source, and the chloride ions originate from a source of its own, then one can not simply say that it is HCl acid..
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I do not really agree with you here.
Two people pointed you to a flaw in your line of thinking, if you don't accept it - your choice.
But you won't get better answer.
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Generally speaking there is no such thing as "HCl in water".
Right. This was a great articulation of where the problem lies, Borek.
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Generally speaking there is no such thing as "HCl in water".
Right. This was a great articulation of where the problem lies, Borek.
There is no "flaw" in my line of thinking.
You say you create HCl, show me a formula where it is actually created.
Leakage of chloride ions into the gastic juices combined with protons that being pumped out is not synonymous with creating hydrochloride acid.
We do not say HCl pump inhibitors, we say proton pump inhibitors.
And no, you do not have HCl in water, covalent bound, but in this case you never even had it from the start.
It is a misnomer and its scientifically incorrect to state that the body produces HCl when it is obvious that it does not...
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrochloric_acid
an aqueous solution of hydrogen chloride. . It is a component of the gastric acid in the digestive systems of most animal species, including humans.
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The source of the chloride ions in the stomach may be pertinent.
"This chloride ion is then transported into the stomach lumen via a chloride channel."
https://teachmephysiology.com/gastrointestinal-system/stomach/acid-production/
"Gastric acid secretion happens in several steps. Chloride and hydrogen ions are secreted separately from the cytoplasm of parietal cells and mixed in the canaliculi. Gastric acid is then secreted into the lumen of the oxyntic gland and gradually reaches the main stomach lumen.
"Chloride and sodium ions are secreted actively from the cytoplasm of the parietal cell into the lumen of the canaliculus. This creates a negative potential of -40 mV to -70 mV across the parietal cell membrane that causes potassium ions and a small number of sodium ions to diffuse from the cytoplasm into the parietal cell canaliculi."
https://www.clinicaleducation.org/resources/reviews/the-role-of-hcl-in-gastric-function-and-health/
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrochloric_acid
an aqueous solution of hydrogen chloride. . It is a component of the gastric acid in the digestive systems of most animal species, including humans.
I do not think we are going to get any further than this in this topic.
If wikipedia suggests that it is simply an aqueous solution of hydrogen and chloride, then I guess we can just make it from acetic acid and NaCl.
If it is an aqueous solution of hydrogen chloride however, it is not the case of the gastic juices.
We can basically just say that whatever H2O solution that we have, with whatever we might have in it, and be classified as hydrochloride acid as long as we have protons and chloride ions in it..
The source of the chloride ions in the stomach may be pertinent.
"This chloride ion is then transported into the stomach lumen via a chloride channel."
https://teachmephysiology.com/gastrointestinal-system/stomach/acid-production/
"Gastric acid secretion happens in several steps. Chloride and hydrogen ions are secreted separately from the cytoplasm of parietal cells and mixed in the canaliculi. Gastric acid is then secreted into the lumen of the oxyntic gland and gradually reaches the main stomach lumen.
"Chloride and sodium ions are secreted actively from the cytoplasm of the parietal cell into the lumen of the canaliculus. This creates a negative potential of -40 mV to -70 mV across the parietal cell membrane that causes potassium ions and a small number of sodium ions to diffuse from the cytoplasm into the parietal cell canaliculi."
https://www.clinicaleducation.org/resources/reviews/the-role-of-hcl-in-gastric-function-and-health/
I think that in physiology, they can say that this is the case whereas in chemistry, we can not say that this is the case.
The difference between biology and chemistry, in simple terms.
Biochem is somewhat of a mix between the two fields that can not really decide if they are more biologists or chemists, much like how you do the counting on fatty acids (from the methyl or from the carboxylic acid end).
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Leakage of chloride ions into the gastic juices combined with protons that being pumped out is not synonymous with creating hydrochloride acid.
YES IT IS.
It is a misnomer and its scientifically incorrect to state that the body produces HCl when it is obvious that it does not...
Mammals DO produce hydrochloric acid. To say otherwise is incorrect.
I do not think we are going to get any further than this in this topic.
That has been the case since the first answers you were given that you choose to disregard. What kind of arrogant fool comes to ask question and when they get told the same answer multiple times by different people decides everyone else is wrong? I can only assume with that kind of bone headed stupidity coupled with an overinflated ego and heaps of arrogance you are a pre-med student due someday to be a bad doctor. Hopefully before then you will grow up and start to listen and realise how much you do and do not know rather than carry on assuming you are always right regardless of the mounting evidence otherwise.
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I do not think we are going to get any further than this in this topic.
If wikipedia suggests that it is simply an aqueous solution of hydrogen and chloride, then I guess we can just make it from acetic acid and NaCl.
If it is an aqueous solution of hydrogen chloride however, it is not the case of the gastic juices.
We can basically just say that whatever H2O solution that we have, with whatever we might have in it, and be classified as hydrochloride acid as long as we have protons and chloride ions in it.
Acetic acid only dissociates to a limited extent on its own.
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I do not think we are going to get any further than this in this topic.
If wikipedia suggests that it is simply an aqueous solution of hydrogen and chloride, then I guess we can just make it from acetic acid and NaCl.
If it is an aqueous solution of hydrogen chloride however, it is not the case of the gastic juices.
We can basically just say that whatever H2O solution that we have, with whatever we might have in it, and be classified as hydrochloride acid as long as we have protons and chloride ions in it.
Acetic acid only dissociates to a limited extent on its own.
Not to mention the fact solution prepared by mixing appropriate amounts of acetic acid and NaCl is in no way different from a solution prepared by mixing hydrochloric acid with sodium acetate.
To some extent it depends on how nitpickingly precise definition one wants to use for "producing HCl" and "solution of HCl" - but that's a can of worms I am not going into.
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Leakage of chloride ions into the gastic juices combined with protons that being pumped out is not synonymous with creating hydrochloride acid.
YES IT IS.
It is a misnomer and its scientifically incorrect to state that the body produces HCl when it is obvious that it does not...
Mammals DO produce hydrochloric acid. To say otherwise is incorrect.
I do not think we are going to get any further than this in this topic.
That has been the case since the first answers you were given that you choose to disregard. What kind of arrogant fool comes to ask question and when they get told the same answer multiple times by different people decides everyone else is wrong? I can only assume with that kind of bone headed stupidity coupled with an overinflated ego and heaps of arrogance you are a pre-med student due someday to be a bad doctor. Hopefully before then you will grow up and start to listen and realise how much you do and do not know rather than carry on assuming you are always right regardless of the mounting evidence otherwise.
I am not a pre-med student, I am an organic (you can that as real) chemist.
You speak of creating HCl, you're not creating it by creating two substrates that is derived from it..
Jesus Christ, please read up on some actual chemistry before coming here and telling people what chemistry is about.
If you can not present a reaction formula where it is created, then you have never created it.
If I present you with two different reaction schemes, that forms product A and B respectively, then by adding them into the same flask I am not creating product C - I am simply having a flask with product A and product B.
It is as simple as that.
What could be said is that mammals create acidic gastric juices, with a low pH, but to say that mammals create HCl acid would simply not be true as there is no reaction where it is actually created. Get your facts straight.
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Leakage of chloride ions into the gastic juices combined with protons that being pumped out is not synonymous with creating hydrochloride acid.
So, what is it producing?
I suppose that there might be some sulfate, bromide, acetate, Na+, K+ and other ions floating around in the stomach. So, it is a complex mix.
But if you add H+ (or H3O+) and some Cl- to pure water, don't you have hydrochloric acid?