Chemical Forums
Specialty Chemistry Forums => Citizen Chemist => Topic started by: TRS71 on June 12, 2021, 01:41:03 PM
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Hi, I'm looking to duplicate or brew a close facsimile of a gardening supply of Liquid Bone Meal- from Nectar for The Gods Herculean Harvest.
I can buy bulk bonemeal for under $1 a pound, the store-bought liquid is $40 a gallon. I know I'm paying $39 for water. If I was using 1/2 a cup that's one thing, but according to their feed chart, I'd need over a 1/2 gallon weekly!
In the video, they mention how they make it. I pulverized the meal to a bag of dust, but then they add an acid, hydrolyze it, and add a protein-At the least.
How do I do that at home?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44rGNoT_2Ik&t=4m12s
Can someone give me the info on how to make a liquid bone meal and doses for my Hydroponic garden? TIA!! :)
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You are mixing things up.
Bone meal is slow source of calcium for use in the soil.
Liquid bone meal is a fast source of calcium in the soil.
Hydroponics solutions like from General Hydroponics are special mixtures that do not rely on bacteria to digest the calcium phosphate. Calcium phosphate is not soluble in water (very little solubility) so you cant use raw calcium phosphate in hydroponics.
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I know it doesnt disolve, thats why I mentiomed hydrolise it, add acid, etc. how do i make it?
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@TRS71
You will need strong acid like 35 % HCl to dissolve calcium phosphorate:
Ca3(PO4)2 + 6 HCl ----> 3 CaCl2 + 2 H3PO4
This will yield an easy source of calcium and phosphorus for plants, besides lowering pH of the soil (it will harm plants).
You will need the "protein" which you wrote earlier, as it probably is used to bind H3PO4 and prevent formation of residue.
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This will yield an easy source of calcium and phosphorus for plants, besides lowering pH of the soil (it will harm plants).
You will get the precipitate back the moment you dilute or neutralize the solution.
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@TRS71
You will need strong acid like 35 % HCl to dissolve calcium phosphorate:
Ca3(PO4)2 + 6 HCl ----> 3 CaCl2 + 2 H3PO4
This will yield an easy source of calcium and phosphorus for plants, besides lowering pH of the soil (it will harm plants).
You will need the "protein" which you wrote earlier, as it probably is used to bind H3PO4 and prevent formation of residue.
Cool, I can buy a gallon of 35% no problem~What do I do for the binding protein?
Also whats the ratio of bone meal to a gallon.
I've had no chemistry in 25 years, and I blew through those cells an eon ago...
If I get a "recipe" for liquid bonemeal, I know a LOT of people will be overjoyed! THANKS!
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I found that "CaCl(H2PO4) is higly soluble in the water".
Bone meal cointains Ca10(PO4)6(OH)2 and Ca3(PO4)2:
Ca10(PO4)6(OH)2 + 14 HCl ----> 6 Ca(H2PO4)Cl + 4 CaCl2 + 2 H2O
Ca3(PO4)2 + 4 HCl ---> 2 Ca(H2PO4)Cl + CaCl2
This means you will need from 115 to 124 ml 35 % HCl for every 100 g of bone meal.
But in practice (H2PO4)- is stable around ph about 5, so you need to bring pH to that level.
I suggest using bromothymol blue or bromocresol purple as they turns yellow at pH below 6.
Is Ca(H2PO4)Cl really that soluble - I don't know, beacause formation of Ca(H2PO4)2 is also possible.
About binding calcium or phospate with a protein - I don't know what protein they are using. Maybe some of the milk proteins ?
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Any recommendations on a protein? I don't need a 1:1 exact copy, just a working mix.
Im not sure what the protein is added for even. Stopping the formation of residue sounds feasible, even store-bought liquid meal leaves a sludge.
I can leave it in a "brew bag" so it won't gum up the pump. I just need the plants to be able to "drink" it... There are going to be a LOT of happy hydo farmers if I get one correct mix down.
There are recipes just boiling bones, but I doubt their actual effectiveness.,
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Oh yea. Also, they say to have to water at 6.0 ph exactly before adding herculean harvest bone meal. 1st time I saw directions that exact. Must have to do with absorption?
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Any recommendations on a protein? I don't need a 1:1 exact copy, just a working mix.
I suggest using milk proteins (milk) as it has some ability to bind calcium phosphates.
Oh yea. Also, they say to have to water at 6.0 ph exactly before adding herculean harvest bone meal. 1st time I saw directions that exact. Must have to do with absorption?
pH is needed to maintain H2PO4-, not HPO42- or something else (Ca(H2PO4)Cl is said to be so soluble).
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Will milk protein have an odor at all? Or if I use milk, how much are we talking in 125 gal of water? 2 weeks max before change.
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@TRS71 Fresh milk doesn't stink, but will go bad in 1- 2 days in 20 C.
As of proportion - you must deduce for yourself - does it even help in dissolving.
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How about powdered milk? Will that go bad?
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Yes, it will go bad same as the normal milk.
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Well is there something besides milk that won't rot? I'm thinking milk-type proteins out, and not sure what the heck it's for even?
What about an amino acid protein fertilizer? https://smile.amazon.com/Safer-Brand-Truamino-Nutrient-Solution/dp/B01CKLLOQU?sa-no-redirect=1
I'll see if I can find out why it is included - Thanks for the help so far...:)
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Proteins - no matter what their source is - always rot. They are a perfect food for microorganisms that will decompose everything containing amino acids.
You can slow the process by keeping them dry, by keeping pH in the range where microorganisms can't survive, but there is always a slight risk some extremophile will thrive in these conditions.
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@TRS71
Could you check on the label and see if it has an expiration date?
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on the Herculean Harvest? I'll look now and edit this.
I know this is kind of a PITA, but if I get a good mix, I'll be ecstatic, along with quite a few gardeners will also be giddy.... :)
The first time I used it, it was a side-by-side plant, and the difference was crazy. I'm really a minimalist in feeding plants KISS :) I think I mentioned it before, I don't mind paying for nutes, but a 1/2 gallon every week of it is crazy-expensive.
I'm also making a cal-mag liquid, but that formula/recipe is everywhere. They even sell a mix, but it's more than the raw chemicals, but still waaaaaaaay cheaper than off the shelves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf-gBI7_eX4
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No expiration date, but I've had mine for almost 2 years, smells the same. Here is an excerpt from them-
My bottle of Herculean Harvest smells really bad, has it spoiled?
Being that bone meal is an organic material from an animal, it has a tendency to smell worse and worse as you open up the lid. What is happening is that the spearmint is off gassing every time you open the lid until one day there will be no more mint in the bottle and you will be left with the smell of road kill. This doesn’t make the product bad. Things to look for after opening the bottle multiple times is if the bottle swells over night and has an ammonia-ish smell. It has then spoiled. This will be true for most of the product line with the exception of Pegasus Potion, which always smells no matter what we do.
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I'm an Oregon local...I garden but was unaware that NOG was based in Springfield OR.
If you go onto their website and view the SDS for Herculean Harvest you may be able to gain some insight. The SDS lists the pH=3.3 with a solubility property="Water soluble Calcium Phosphate."
It also states that "product will release CO2 if mixed with alkaline substances."
Lastly, in the video they mention a "protein gum."
I have a few thoughts on further testing but not sure what equipment you have available.