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Specialty Chemistry Forums => Citizen Chemist => Topic started by: mafiaparty303 on December 31, 2006, 06:29:33 AM

Title: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on December 31, 2006, 06:29:33 AM
I have been looking at what United Nuclear has, they have some really cool glassware (http://www.unitednuclear.com/other.htm)
and also a whole page on chemicals (http://www.unitednuclear.com/chem.htm) I would like to buy the Laboratory Glassware set and some starter chemicals for some basic experiments to learn more about chemistry. What would be some good sterter chemicals?

Does anyone here know of a company that sells maybe a set of a bunch of chemicals in individual containers and all? That would be very helpful. I'll do some searching on the web for something like it but meanwhile has anyone bought from Uniter Nuclear? Specifically the Laboratory Glassware Set? Is it worth the money?

Thanks



Heres a list of the things I'd like to purchase...
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on December 31, 2006, 09:09:06 PM
Basic Laboratory Tool Set (test tube holder, tongs, tube holders, spatula, powder scoop)
Calcium Carbide, 2 oz.   
Copper Sulfate, 2 oz.     
Sulfur, 2 oz.   
Zinc Metal Dust, 2 oz. 
Manganese Dioxide, 2oz.     
Aluminum - granular, 2 oz. 
Test Tubes (pack of 6)     
Watch Glass     
Alcohol Lamp   
Replacement Wicks, pack of 3
4 oz. wide mouth jar   
Boric Acid, 2 oz.   
Citric Acid, 2 oz.   
Silver Metal, disc   
250 ml Erlenmeyer Flask   
50 ml Beaker     
10 ml Graduated Cylinder   
Rubber Stopper size: #6 - solid
Rubber Stopper size: #0 - solid 4 of them

This all come out to ~$75, is it worth it for a chem lab in the making?


This is all from United Nuclear, would there be anything else that I might want to include from them? I was thinking about buying th magnesium roll but thats another $7  :o
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: pantone159 on December 31, 2006, 11:37:40 PM
It's hard to say exactly what stuff to have in your lab.  The real answer is 'all of it' but that conflicts with your finite budget.  Alas.

Overall, that list looks like a reasonable start.  You'll always want more things, though, both chemicals and apparatus.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: EccentricHeather on January 01, 2007, 12:16:40 AM
I have ordered from United Nuclear (uranium and potassium metals).  They can be a bit slow, but their selection is good and their prices seem reasonable on some things.  It looks like they can provide you with a good start, but you might also want some common chemicals that they don't carry.  Try Hi-Valley chemical - http://www.hvchemical.com/ - if you live in the U.S.  They have many of the most popular chemicals, including the strong acids and bases that have numerous uses.  You could also try eBay, soap making suppliers, pottery suppliers, or photography suppliers.

There are other places you might look for suggestions.  First, the contents of old-fashioned chemistry sets would be a good guide on how to start out.  You might find some listings on eBay or elsewhere.  Try searching "antique chemistry set".  Or there still appears to be a chemistry set that has some of what used to be commonly included.  It is the Chem C3000 set.  I haven't bought it (I already have many of the common chemicals and a decent selection of glassware, so I don't really need it at this point), but from the listing of what is in it, it looks like a good one (perhaps the only reasonably useful one currently available).  You could look at the list of chemicals in it as an idea of what might be good to have.

http://www.discoverthis.com/chem-c3000.html

Another good guide of what is useful is the now-infamous "Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments".  If you do a search on it, you'll eventually run across a copy available for download; that is how I got mine.  (Since the radioactive boy scout made the book infamous, original copies are now rather expensive.)  The book has a good list of useful chemicals, and it has some good basic experiments (including a few potentially dangerous ones).  I strongly recommend downloading a copy.  Here is the list of common chemicals from that book.

acetic acid, ammonium chloride, ammonium hydroxide, calcium carbonate, calcium hydroxide, calcium oxide, calcium sulfate, carbon tetrachloride, copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, glucose, hydrochloric acid, hydrogen peroxide, iron (powder), magnesium, magnesium sulfate, manganese dioxide, naphthalene, phenolphthalein, potassium aluminum sulfate, potassium ferrocyanide, potassium iodide, potassium nitrate, potassium permanganate, salicylic acid, silver nitrate, sodium bicarbonate, sodium bisulfate, sodium carbonate, sodium chloride, sodium hydroxide, sodium hypochlorite, sodium potassium tartrate, sodium silicate, sodium tetraborate (borax), sodium thiosulfate, sucrose, sulfur, zinc, zinc chloride

Most of these chemicals are still reasonably easy to obtain, but a few (i.e. carbon tetrachloride) could be difficult these days.  I have a number of them, and I intend to collect as many of them as I can.

Nearly all of the chemicals listed in the "Golden Book" would be useful to have.  I have found some others to be good for a few things; you might want some of them, depending on your interests.

calcium chloride, isopropyl alcohol, lithium chloride, methyl alcohol, nitric acid, potassium hydroxide, sodium nitrate, sulfuric acid.

(Be careful with some of these.  The strong acids and bases - hydrochloric acid, nitric acid, sulfuric acid, sodium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide - must be treated with the utmost respect.  A beginner might want to start with dilute solutions of these.  Some others are dangerous in concentrated form - acetic acid (glacial), ammonium hydroxide, hydrogen peroxide.)

The ones that you have listed seem to be good choices.  If you add a few others, you will have a good beginning collection.

Heather
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 01, 2007, 05:34:01 AM
Wow, so much information, thanks a lot, I'm gonna go look for the Gold book of Chemistry Experiments online right now!

Hopefully I'll decide on what to buy
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 01, 2007, 06:51:07 AM
Is 20$ for a 500mL, 36% HCl good? Is 36% a fairly good dilute amount for a beginer? Ex. Dissolving zinc etc?



Hmm...
Would it be better to buy 1pt of 37% HCl at $8 (technical grade) of the above one? ^^^



EDIT: Anyone know where I can get some Sodium Bisulfate, Potassium Iodide and some Sodium Hydroxide?
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: Borek on January 01, 2007, 09:53:38 AM
36% HCl is not dilute, it doesn't get much more concentrated. About 38% is a practical upper concentration limit.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: EccentricHeather on January 01, 2007, 12:08:18 PM
Is 20$ for a 500mL, 36% HCl good? Is 36% a fairly good dilute amount for a beginer? Ex. Dissolving zinc etc?

Hmm...
Would it be better to buy 1pt of 37% HCl at $8 (technical grade) of the above one? ^^^

The prices you quote seem reasonable.  I have found technical grade to be fine for general purposes, but if you perform an experiment that is highly sensitive to impurities, you might want something better.  Use it in a well-ventilated area; this acid has an especially nasty burning odor.  For many uses, you will likely want to dilute it.  I have found it to be useful for some household cleaning jobs when diluted 1 part acid to 10 parts water by volume.

EDIT: Anyone know where I can get some Sodium Bisulfate, Potassium Iodide and some Sodium Hydroxide?

Try Hi-Valley Chemical (the link is in my previous post).  I just bought some sodium hydroxide from them last week.  (I'm lucky that I live about 20 miles from them, so I can pick stuff up in person, but they do ship.)  Also, some soap-making suppliers have technical-grade sodium hydroxide for a very reasonable price.  A Google search should turn it up quickly.  United Nuclear has potassium hydroxide, which is a good substitute for sodium hydroxide for some purposes (although recipes may have to be adjusted).  I have also seen all three of these on eBay at times.

EDIT:  Here is a link to a soap-making supplier that sells sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide for a reasonable price.  You might even want to investigate this topic; soap-making might be a good experiment for a beginning chemistry hobbyist.

http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/dry.html

Good luck!

Heather
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: jdurg on January 01, 2007, 01:08:02 PM
I agree.  Soap making is a nice beginner experiment, and is also a GREAT way to force you to respect caustic substances like NaOH and KOH.  When you see, and smell, what that stuff does to fats it creates a whole new type of respect for it.  What you see going on to make the soaps and glycerine is what happens to your flesh if you drop the stuff on it!   :o
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: woelen on January 01, 2007, 04:10:56 PM
I have gone through the process of starting a home lab and made a few mistakes while purchasing the wrong non-interesting chems (and hence throwing away money on badly chosen chems). I wrote a web-page on this subject, hoping that it will help others:

http://woelen.scheikunde.net/science/chem/misc/homelab.html
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 01, 2007, 04:13:32 PM
EDIT: Hey Woelen, thanks for the site, gonna help me a lot (I was gonna buy zinc powder, but it seems dangerous)
Nice site by the way..very helpful!

To EccentricHeather and Jdurg-

Ill keep that in mind, thanks...
So how dilute should this HCl be for a beginer? 10% 20% Don't wanna have my flesh burning off any time soon :-X

Hmm.. interesting I looked for the sodium Hydroxide on HVchemicals but didint find it.. Ill look agian

Would it be better to build somewhat of a workplace in my garage instead of setting this stuff up in my room? I saw a model of something nice on the Golden Book of Chem Experiments. Im thinking it would..since I have a smoke dtector in my room and the only real ventilation would bed an open window.. Maybe there are some small lab plans on the internet, I'll have a look around.

And I'll look into the soap making experiments

I'll let everyone know what I find.


EDIT (again): @ everyone- Should I have nitric and sulfuric acid in my lab?  I heard and saw on the internet that its some crazy stuff (burning flesh, lost eyesight) And if I do get it how dilute should it be?
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: woelen on January 01, 2007, 04:20:04 PM
Quote
Would it be better to build somewhat of a workplace in my garage instead of setting this stuff up in my room?

Absolutely! You should not do chemical experiments in the rooms where you live. I have a small separate room, which I use for my chemical experiments (and at the same time, it also is used as photography darkroom).
You WILL spill small amounts of chemicals, and if you do that in the room where you live, eat, sleep, etc. then in the long run this may do harm. Long-term exposure to small quantities of different chems may have unpredictable and nasty consequences. So, if you can setup some experimenting site in a garage, shed, or separate room, that would be best. If not, then be VERY precise and VERY strict in preventing spills and in cleaning up after the experiments. Especially solid (fine dust) are the most notorious, not the toxic gases like Cl2, SO2, NH3 etc. Those gasses simply go away, but the solids remain in the room!
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 01, 2007, 04:40:27 PM
on the snowdrift farm website, when you go to the shoping cart you can type in .5 for quantity, if you have a the 2lbs of each will that give you 1lbs of each?


How much is 2 ounces? Becuase United Nuclear sells in 2 ounces and im starting to wonder if that is a lot? Has anyone ordered the 2 ounces of anything? and if you have about how big is the container?
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: Mitch on January 01, 2007, 05:41:28 PM
Quote
Is 36% a fairly good dilute amount for a beginer?

That is the very reason I'm conflicted having this forum up. Have you taken a Chemistry class ever? Can you talk to a local Chemistry teacher? That level of ignorance is dangerous and unacceptable.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 01, 2007, 05:52:01 PM
yes, im taking chemistry right now, and how is wanting to know being ignorant?

And how is that the very reason that your conflicted for having the forum up? Isn't this supposed to be somewhere to learn? You calling me ignorant for wanting to learn...ya...well...sure...
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: pantone159 on January 01, 2007, 05:53:48 PM
I think 10% HCl is a reasonable strength.  That's usually what I use.  BTW - If you aren't experienced in handling chemicals, I'd definitely avoid concentrated sulfuric and nitric acids.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 01, 2007, 05:57:45 PM
Thank you mark, (FOR MAKING ME NOT SO IGNORANT!!!), I'll keep that in mind about the nitric acid and sulfuric.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: pantone159 on January 01, 2007, 06:13:54 PM
P.S.  Two ounces is plenty for very many chemicals.  I have significantly smaller amounts (e.g. 10 g) of many of the chems in my collection.  For the most part, if you keep things at a small scale, you can do very many experiments with that much.

Woelen's site is really great for understanding which chems will be interesting.

P.P.S.  Out of the chemicals you listed, I think that boric acid, granular al, and the silver disk would be the least interesting.  Use Al foil instead for most things, super cheap.  The silver disk should look real purty, but one of the few easy experiments is to tarnish it with the sulfur, and then it will look horrible.  (You can try cleaning it with Al foil and baking soda, but it won't get back to its original luster.)  Also add ammonia solution from the grocery store (no extra colorings), it forms a very attractive complex with copper.

Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals? help arg! no responses
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 01, 2007, 06:19:20 PM
Ok, thanks, ya I decided to not buy the boric acid since I didn't see any use in it.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: EccentricHeather on January 01, 2007, 08:19:57 PM
After reading the various exchanges in this thread, I have a better idea of your current level of experience.  I would agree that you should avoid concentrated acids at this point.  I like concentrated acids because they are less expensive, take a lot less space, and are easy to dilute to desired strength.  But I did work my way up to this; when I had less experience, I bought a pint of 10% (dilute) sulfuric acid and found it to be reasonably easy to work with.  Note that even dilute acids can have their hazards, and you need to treat them with respect.  Although I started with sulfuric, I would recommend that you start with dilute hydrochloric.  10% is good.  I also use approx. 3% on occasion.  It is a bit less hazardous, and more of the beginning experiments, such as those described in the "Golden Book" use it.  Sodium bisulfate (you can find it on eBay) is a good substitute for sulfuric acid in many experiments.  Another common dilute acid, which is quite safe to work with, is plain white household vinegar (acetic acid - usually about 5%).  But note that this acid is quite dangerous in concentrated ("glacial") form, so don't buy that until you have more experience.

Two ounces should be fine to get an introduction to the properties of sodium hydroxide.  However, if you get into soap making, you could go through a lot of it, so you might eventually need to order a larger quantity.  It is on Hi-Valley's website.  I haven't ordered from Snowdrift since I can get it locally, but I would assume that they don't sell fractional quantities.  Note that many chemical retailers (including Hi-Valley) won't sell to people who are under 21.  If you're under 21, you may need help from your parents in ordering chemicals.  Long gone are the days when a teenager could walk into a chemical supply shop and buy just about anything.  Given the nature of today's society, that's probably a good thing.

One note on the "Golden Book"...  If you are just getting started, I would recommend performing many of the experiments in it; that would be a great way to learn.  However, safety standards in the 1960's weren't quite what they are now.  I can't believe that a book designed for children and teenagers contains instructions for making chlorine, nitrogen dioxide, hydrogen sulfide, and sulfur dioxide.  If I were you, I would avoid those experiments until you have more experience - those gases are hazardous.  (But when you are ready, by all means perform those experiments in a very well-ventilated area.)  Also, take care with the experiments that generate hydrogen - keep the quantities down.  The chloroform experiment seems rather scary too.  If you see an interesting-looking experiment there or elsewhere and want opinions on its safety, post here and I'm sure you will get a good response.  While it could use a few revisions to remove some of the most dangerous experiments, I think that book is a great introduction to chemistry.  It's a shame there isn't a revised version of it in print now.

Heather
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 01, 2007, 09:07:57 PM
Ya, I also noticed it says to taste the HCl and other things, I'm not porfessional but I don't think that should be done.
And yes I'm 16 and my parents will have to order the chemicals. Hopefully i'm gonna get to ordering the equipment and chemicals today. I might just get some of the chemicals mentioned in the book and then work from there.

I was looking for the Golden Book yesterday , as much as $600 for it now!!! Thats just crazy, and the book is just awsome, so much stuff to learn. But ya I'm guessing they didn't focus on safety so much in the 60's, but I'm gonna be safe and not try any of the harmful ones. I've already made Chlorine gas before (not the greatest thing to make in yoru kitchen), and there are somethings on the internet that don't help.

I found an site with experiments and one of them was the electolysis of saltwater, the products of the electrolysis for them was, oxygen and hydrogen. Nothing mentioned about the poisonous chlorine formed.

I'm gonna make a list of the chemicals that I want mentioned in the book and order those. Becuase I don't want to order chemicals I have no use for (and know no use for) and then not use them at all. And the golden book is by far the best experiment book I've seen after looking everywhere.

Filippo

EDIT: In the golden book it says that if you sniff too much chlorine then have some household ammonia around and sniff that if you get too much chlorine. Why so?
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: EccentricHeather on January 02, 2007, 12:26:19 AM
Ammonia will react with chlorine; I would imagine that the reaction product (perhaps ammonium chloride or chloramines) depends on the conditions and on what else is around.  I haven't checked on the details, so I don't know precisely what compounds would result, but the product is likely a lot less toxic than the chlorine.

When working with halogens, it is a good idea to have a neutralizing chemical handy.  For bromine and iodine, a solution of sodium thiosulfate seems to be the most popular.  There are iodine experiments in the "Golden Book"; if you do them, you might want to have some sodium thiosulfate on hand to clean up any spills or to get rid of any excess iodine that you don't need.  And don't make bromine until you have gained a lot of experience.  I haven't done that yet, but I may try it one of these days if I feel brave.  (And since I have mentioned halogens, fluorine is only for experts with the proper equipment; I doubt I will ever attempt that.)

For that matter, it is good to have some sort of neutralizing chemical handy when working with anything that might create problems if it gets out of control.  In case of acid spills, I have sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) around, and I have vinegar available in case of caustic spills.  (Heavily diluted solutions of the stronger acids and bases might work too.)  And if I am burning something, I have a way of putting out the fire.  I have been careful enough that I haven't ever had a significant acid or caustic spill, but recently I had a burning liquid (methanol) spill onto the table.  (I was burning calcium chloride in it to watch the pretty orange flame.)  I had a huge container of water nearby, and I dumped it on the fire immediately.  That could have been ugly if I hadn't been ready for it.  As it was, the only harm done is that a few things got wet - the table didn't even get damaged.  (So far, I don't burn things that can't be put out by water, but if I ever do, I'll have the right fire suppression equipment handy.)

No matter how careful you are, something is bound to go wrong eventually, so part of your lab setup should include neutralizing chemicals and ways to put out fires.  A large jug of water and a fire extinguisher are inexpensive items that could save your butt some day.  (Again, understand what you are burning.  Water is a very bad idea for certain types of fires; for example, fires involving alkali metals.)

While we're at it, does anyone else have suggestions on spill containment and fire suppression?  These are important parts of a basic lab setup.

Heather
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: Mitch on January 02, 2007, 12:45:22 AM
Do not sniff a chemical to make up for over sniffing an other one. ::)

The point is not to of sniffed it in the first place, because you performed the experiment outside and downwind to your nose. ;)
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 02, 2007, 01:00:10 AM
For the spill containment won't sand help, at least so the spill dosn't expand anymore than it already has?

@mitch
haha true words


I've been looking for potassiunm iodide everywhere, the only thing I've found is pills, and I don't want to order lots of chemicals from ebay since they are all separate meaning separate shipping costs...
are there any other sites (other than hvchemicals) that sell im small amounts, (like united nuclear)?

EDIT: wow....hvchemicals isnt that great.... theres a $25 plus fee for hazardous material, thats not taking into mind the actual HCl cost and the shipping thats like..$15..

I need to find a better place

(I'm thinking about buying some of the radioactive marables for $10 from U.N. and some free radioactive ore comes with them, should I store this in some lead or is the radioactivity level too little to cause harm?)


Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: billnotgatez on January 02, 2007, 06:00:26 AM
This is a FYI post

EccentricHeather -

The Golden Book you mention has been discussed many places on this forum before. For many of the experienced chemist that post here, this book is scary. Within it are serious safety issues. So many in fact that one is unable to caution the novice against them all. As I understand it from a historical perspective the book was deemed dangerous enough that most all the libraries removed it from the shelf and the publisher decided not to continue taking on the legal hazards. There is in fact a theory out there that the government actually worked to stop its publication. Therefor the price has become very high and Internet piracy has ensued. Of course anything semi banned takes on a cult following which will disregard the bad points. In any case this forum does not support piracy. Many of the experience chemist regulars are chagrined at the mention of this book due to its safety issues. For myself as a citizen scientist I hate seeing things get censored, but at the same time I fear for the well being of the novice. If you could let us drop discussion of this book and talk more about the individual projects a citizen chemist can do. By the way there are other pages on this forum that discuss good books that are more acceptable.

mafiaparty303 -

There is nothing that will cure the lost in trust by your fellow housemates than to do an experiment that makes the house unlivable. A nasty smell that permeates throughout the house will get chemistry banned forever. When I experiment I do it out in the garage which is not attached to the house or outdoors upwind. It even concerns me when someone says they experiment in the basement. This is especially true when I find out they do not have a fume hood.

For anyone else reading this post -

Let us hope we can continue to do good science without getting hurt. As we all know doing helps us learn.
As an aside, there are sales of fireworks in Alabama with no problem, but in New York if you use a sparkler you can get arrested.  Even within the USA the rules are hard to understand.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: billnotgatez on January 02, 2007, 06:02:49 AM
Just to mention

This forum has a sticky at the top of it that discusses labs
    Labs, labs, labs...
And the sub forum to this forum has 2 sticky post at the top that discuss sources.

+  Chemical Forums: Chemistry Forum, Chemistry Question, Chemistry Help
|-+  Chemistry Forums for Students of Chemistry
| |-+  Citizen Chemist
| | |-+  Buy/Sell/Trade/Borrow Chemicals, Glassware and Instrumentation (Moderators: Mitch, billnotgatez)
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 02, 2007, 02:01:40 PM
Ok, ya I'm definetly not doing anything in my room if its anything potentially hazerdous, I'm going out today and building a small work table with my dad. Gonna add some shelves for storage and put it in my garage, it is connected to my house but only the the door that leads to the house. No vents going into the other rooms or anything. As for ventilation I can leave the garage door open, if not, bail out and run outside ( :P). As for "the book" I won't discuss it, and where are the books mentioned? I have yet to find a book showing chemistry experiments that's as good as "the book".

Anyone know where I can get Hydrochloric Acid? HVchemicals has it but they charge and extra $25 plus HCl cost and Shipping and Handeling. And thats just too much. Plus some Potassium Iodide
Heres what I have yet to find.

HCl
Potassium Iodide
Calcium Oxide
Sodium Hydroxide
Sodium Biosulfate
Sodium Carbonate
Potassium Permangenate (U.N has them but they are sold out right now  :()
and finally
Iron Sulfate


im going to Walgreens (drugstore) to see if they have any of those... hopefully they might.
Anyone know where I can get them?
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: pantone159 on January 02, 2007, 02:36:29 PM
(I'm thinking about buying some of the radioactive marables for $10 from U.N. and some free radioactive ore comes with them, should I store this in some lead or is the radioactivity level too little to cause harm?)

The marbles need no special precautions. (I keep mine just in a glass vial (as my display U sample) just like any non-hazardous element.)

Radioactive ores, on the other hand, *MUST* be stored OUTSIDE.  They emit radon, which is not something you want to build up  inside your home.

You can find several chemicals at the grocery store/hardware store.  For example (based on my experience in the USA):
NaOH - 'Red Devil Lye'.  This is supposedly getting harder to find, but it still exists.  Danger - Very corrosive to people.  Gets hot when dissolved in water.
HCl - 'Muriatic Acid'.  Strength varies.
Na2CO3 - Poor quality Na2CO3 is available as Arm & Hammer Washing Soda (not baking soda) which comes in a yellow box in the laundry detergent aisle
NaHCO3 - Baking soda
MgSO4 - Epsom salt
NH3 - Household ammonia.  You want the stuff without any extra colors/scents, typically the cheap generic stuff.

Collecting chems and apparatus becomes a perpetual process.  You are never done.

Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 02, 2007, 03:22:20 PM
Yep, well ya, I decided to buy some flat glass marbles off Ebay way cheaper 40 for $8. No radioactive ore unfortunatly but I wouldnt want to buy the lead and everything.

Anyone know where I can get some potassium Iodide? Can I just buy the tablets and then crush them and put them in a plastic container?
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: woelen on January 02, 2007, 03:25:33 PM
Sometimes it is good to make dangerous things, but only in VERY small quantities. It gives you an impression of how dangerous they actually are and that kind of knowledge is important.

So, I encourage a starter to make some chlorine, but only in VERY small amounts. Carefully sniffing gives you the smell of it, so you will recognize it, when you accidently make it in another experiment. The same is true for SO2, Br2, NO2. Make them in a test tube (using 100 mg of chems, not more) and carefully sniff them. Not by sticking your nose in the test tube, but by wafting some of the gas towards your nose with your hand. Really, it learns you a lot.

If I may suggest a set of chems, which are interesting, and which can all be purchased at a single shop (PM for info, I don't post addresses over here, and I decide whether I give the address or not based on post history), then I would suggest the following:

50 g KI
100 g KBr
100 g Na2SO3
100 g Fe(NO3)3.9H2O (better than chloride, the nitrate does not form a complex with ferric ion in aqueous solution)
100 g FeSO4.7H2O
100 g K2Cr2O7 (careful: carcinogen, but otherwise not really dangerous, but allows a LOT of really funny/colorful experiments in aqueous solution).
100 g KMnO4 (careful: very potent oxidizer, much more so than K2Cr2O7, only use in aqueous solutions when you are inexperienced).
100 g K2S2O8
100 g NaNO2 (this is my favorite, no other chemical is good for so many good aqueous chemistry experiments)

100 g NaSCN (nice complex formation with many metals)
100 g KCr(SO4)2.12H2O (chrome alum, funny and cheap)
100 g CuSO4.5H2O
100 g KOH (or NaOH)
250 g NaHCO3
250 g Na2S2O3.5H2O (good old hypo, dirt cheap, yet funny chem)
100 g Na2B4O7.10H2O (borax)
100 g K3Fe(CN)6 (potassium ferricyanide, non-toxic, despite the cyanide ligands, very versatile chem, good very many experiments)
100 g K4Fe(CN)6.3H2O (potassium ferrocyanide, idem)
50 g Na2S.xH2O (caution: makes H2S in contact with acids, but it is a nice versatile chem, which however, must be kept very well stoppered)

Some chems, which you should not spend money on if you are not a pyro-hobbyist:
NaNO3
KNO3
KClO4
Na2SO4
Nitrates and perchlorates are very inert in aqueous solution, unless highly concentrated, or at extremely low pH (between -1 and 0). Sodium sulfate is as energetic as a dead dog and cannot react with anything. Not interesting at all.

Locally you should try to obtain

1 liter NH3 (5% is OK)
100 ml H2O2 (3% is OK)
1 liter HCl (30%)
1 liter H2SO4 (32%, battery acid, be careful with the 96% stuff, 32% is relatively safe)
100 grams TCCA (trichloro isocyanuric acid, swimming pool slow acting organic chlorine, unfortunately this mostly only is available in kilo-packages)
1 liter NaClO (4% is OK, common household bleach)
A few gallons of distilled water. This is the only chemical which I use in large quantities. I do all of my aqueous transition metal chemistry experiments in distilled water. Really, spend the money for this, it is worth it. If you buy it in jerrycan quantities it is quite cheap anyway.

HNO3 probably will be very hard to obtain in the USA. Over here in NL it is easy to obtain at 52% but I know that at the other side of the ocean things are quite different. It would be nice though if you could obtain that, but you do not need it to start with.

It really is best to obtain H2SO4, it is a very versatile acid, more so than HCl. The chloride ion coordinates to many transition metal ions and for many experiments that is not what you want. NaHSO4 is a very good and safe alternative and can be purchased locally as pH-minus for swimmingpools.

From a ceramics and pottery supplier you can obtain the following very interesting transition metal compounds for really low prices:
100 gram  V2O5, vanadium pentoxide
100 gram  CoCO3, cobalt carbonate  (don't buy Co3O4, it is inert and does not dissolve in any solvent)
100 gram  NiCO3.Ni(OH)2, (basic) nickel carbonate
100 gram  CuCO3.2Cu(OH)2, (basic) copper carbonate
100 gram  MoO3, molybdenum trioxide, makes molybdates easily with solutions of NaOH or KOH)
100 gram  ZnO, zinc oxide

Another interesting chemical may be silver nitrate, AgNO3 (available from the same source as the chems, I mentioned above), but it is fairly expensive. You could consider buying 10 grams, but still, it costs $10 or more.

With the list, given here, you can do a LOT of aqueous chemistry experiments and also quite some nice (colored) gas experiments. All these experiments can be done safely, also at home, but of course, you should use your brains and not do stupid things. Always use small amounts (max. 100 mg, small spatula of solid, with a few ml of water or acid added to dissolve it). With that you simply won't have serious accidents, because quantities are too low to be really dangerous. The only organ which could be severely damaged with such small amounts is the eye, so wear glasses or goggles ALWAYS when experimenting.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: joeflsts on January 02, 2007, 05:14:17 PM
For the spill containment won't sand help, at least so the spill dosn't expand anymore than it already has?

@mitch
haha true words


I've been looking for potassiunm iodide everywhere, the only thing I've found is pills, and I don't want to order lots of chemicals from ebay since they are all separate meaning separate shipping costs...
are there any other sites (other than hvchemicals) that sell im small amounts, (like united nuclear)?

EDIT: wow....hvchemicals isnt that great.... theres a $25 plus fee for hazardous material, thats not taking into mind the actual HCl cost and the shipping thats like..$15..

I need to find a better place

(I'm thinking about buying some of the radioactive marables for $10 from U.N. and some free radioactive ore comes with them, should I store this in some lead or is the radioactivity level too little to cause harm?)




If you are looking for HCl then you should check out a local hardware store.  You can buy it by the gallon.  It is called Muractic Acid.

Joe
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 02, 2007, 05:23:19 PM
Ok, thanks I'll check it out!
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: jdurg on January 02, 2007, 07:24:37 PM
Radioactive ores, on the other hand, *MUST* be stored OUTSIDE.  They emit radon, which is not something you want to build up  inside your home.


That's a bit overblown there.  The longest lived isotope of Radon has a half-life of 3.8 days.  This Radon can also only come from the decay of Radium-226 which only makes up a trace amount of the various number of isotopes of Radium.  Radium has a long half-life of about 1600 years, and the radium is generated from thorium in the ore which has an even longer half-life.  So what am I getting at here?  Basically there is not enough raw material in a sample of ore to produce any noticeable level of radon, and any radon that does get generated will either get locked up in the ore itself, or will decay long before it can "build up".  The only places where radon build-up is a problem is at the very bottom of ore mines where there are billions of years of equillibrium built up and tons and tons and tons of ore there in the earth. 

Trust me, having some radioactive ore in your house is not going to lead to a massive radon buildup.  In order to have an amount that would create a dangerous radon build-up you'd need to be more worried about the radiation from the ore itself rather than the fleetingly tiny quantity of radon that exists.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: constant thinker on January 02, 2007, 10:15:53 PM
Just to add my two sense.

Small scale experiments are the way to go. They are simply cheaper and safer.

Keep in mind that some household chemicals are seen as benign (like vinegar), but once concentrated are dangerous and nothing like there common household product. A standard example is glacial acetic acid and vinegar. Vinegar is used for cooking purposes, but that doesn't mean that acetic acid is safe. Once concentrated it is dangerous.

Don't smell stuff. Work in well ventilated areas (or outside), and stand downwind.

For me, personally I find experiments that I want to try. Then I research if there any over the counter ways of getting it.

Don't use things that you cook with or eat on.

Respect all chemicals.

Neutralizing chemicals is a must.

Lastly if your unsure research the question, and if you still have questions about an experiment or chemical, ask!

P.S. These are just general rules that I personally follow, and I think I covered most things; even though most have already been mentioned. Happy experimenting! :)
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: billnotgatez on January 03, 2007, 09:53:21 AM
mafiaparty303 -

My post about the sub forum answered your HCl question and will answer your questions about common sources of other substances.

Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 04, 2007, 03:34:03 AM
Woudn't mixing.... Hydrochloric acid and SodiumNitrae give you Nitric Acid and table salt?
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: woelen on January 04, 2007, 12:12:36 PM
No, not precisely. You get a mix of chloride and nitrate at very low pH. This mix is unstable and is somewhat comparable to aqua regia. You can make the mix, but don't store it for a longer time.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 04, 2007, 12:48:39 PM
I don't really understand what you mean by a mix of chloride and nitrate? What would happen to the sodium?


And where can I get some Calcium Oxide? I've looked everywhere..ebay has one for $30 (no way), that place you gave me (woelen) dosnt have it.
Does anyone know where I can get some!?

Thanks


EDIT: What is the difference between CuSO4 and CuSO4.5H2O?
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: woelen on January 04, 2007, 04:34:01 PM
Of course, the sodium remains in the liquid also, but that only is a spectator ion, so I did not mention it.

To be more precise, if you add NaNO3 to concentrated HCl, then you'll get some white precipitate of NaCl (and also left over NaNO3). In solution you will have the following ions:

Na(+)
H(+)
Cl(-)
NO3(-)

and you will of course have water.

The H(+), Cl(-) and NO3(-) will slowly react, forming Cl2, NOCl and H2O. So, after some time, the liquid also will contain molecules of Cl2 and NOCl besides the ions, mentioned above.

Is CaO really interesting? I would certainly not add it to your collection of chems as a starter. Even now, while I'm doing chemistry for quite a few years already and have a few hundreds of different chems, I still do not have CaO. There are more interesting ways to spend your money (besides the chems I mentioned earler, a very good one is a mix with 5% ethanol, some CO2 bubbles in it, and a tasteful golden yellow aroma ;D).

Many salts exist in multiple forms. Hydrated forms and anhydrous forms. CuSO4.5H2O is copper (II) ion, with 4 H2O-molecules coordinated to it, and one H2O molecule coordinated to the sulfate ions. These compounds are very different. Many hydrates are true ionic compounds, such as CoCl2.6H2O, CrCl3.6H2O, NiSO4.6H2O, while the anhydrous compounds are not true salts but are strongly covalent. Their chemical properties are very different and they also look very different:

CuSO4.5H2O (http://woelen.scheikunde.net/science/chem/compounds/copper_sulfate.html)
CuSO4 (http://woelen.scheikunde.net/science/chem/compounds/copper_sulfate_anh.html)
NiSO4.6H2O (http://woelen.scheikunde.net/science/chem/compounds/nickel_sulfate.html)
NiSO4 (http://woelen.scheikunde.net/science/chem/compounds/nickel_sulfate_anh.html)
CoCl2.6H2O (http://woelen.scheikunde.net/science/chem/compounds/cobaltous_chloride.html)
CoCl2 (http://woelen.scheikunde.net/science/chem/compounds/cobaltous_chloride_anh.html)
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 04, 2007, 05:09:57 PM
o ok.... Na2S.H2O is Sodium Sulfide Monohydrate, so from the "place" I would get the Sodium Sulfite[(mono/anahydrous) or the Sodium Sulfide???
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: woelen on January 04, 2007, 05:58:15 PM
You should obtain sodium sulfite (they sell the anhydrous form or the monohydrate). The chemical properties of sodium sulfite anhydrous and sodium sulfide monohydrate are also different, but not as much as the difference of the other salts I mentioned in my previous post. For your purpose both chemicals are suitable and it does not really matter which one you obtain. Sodium sulfite is a fairly innocuous chemical, which is a very nice, but safe chem for a starter.

Sodium sulfide also is quite interesting, but it is a dangerous chemical. It is VERY poisonous, especially if acid is added. It has a horrible smell, but if the smell becomes too strong it deadens your sense of smell and then the sulfide may even kill you, without you noticing it, until you suddenly pass out. So, with sulfide you must be very careful, and I really suggest you first study its properties before you experiment with it. Also storage of sulfide requires special care.

From the list of chems, I mentioned a few posts ago, the sodium sulfide by far is the most dangerous one.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 04, 2007, 07:02:39 PM
OK thanks,

Another question... if you took Epsom Salt (Magnesium Sulfate) put it in solution with water and then added calcium, would you get magnesium metal and Calcium Sulfate?
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: constant thinker on January 04, 2007, 07:49:58 PM
OK thanks,

Another question... if you took Epsom Salt (Magnesium Sulfate) put it in solution with water and then added calcium, would you get magnesium metal and Calcium Sulfate?

Think about reactivity. Which is more reactive, Mg or Ca?
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: Borek on January 04, 2007, 08:03:53 PM
Don't forget you have plenty of water around!
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 04, 2007, 08:42:18 PM
Calcium is more reactive is it not? So is that a yes or no? Your saying the calcium would rather react with the water than the Epsom salt in solution? ???
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: enahs on January 04, 2007, 08:53:34 PM
I might be a little late (been busy) but if you have not had much experience in Chemistry lab in school, I would highly recommend not starting your own lab first, but buying a kit.

It has nothing to do with thinking you are stupid, or immature; but many of the safety procedures in a chemistry lab seem to go against common sense, and most you will not know, at all, without experience or somebody telling you.

This kit, for instance:
http://www.hometrainingtools.com/catalog/chemistry/chemistry-kits/p_kt-micchem.html
Is quite nice for a home starter kit, for a high school student/mature student. It is not one of those cheap crappy ones you can get at Toys R’ Us, it has some damn useful chemicals in it. Unfortunately it does not list the experiments included (well, just what they cover, which is a wide range, but not what actual experiment you do to cover that information), but based on the equipment and chemicals, and knowing the level of education they expect, they would be some very fun and educational experiments. And the bonus is that it comes with all the safety instructions.

Some of the chemicals that you have been talking about are down right dangerous for someone at your level (in the concentrations you are getting). There is nothing wrong with enthusiasm, but you must go slow and learn first; this is not a comment against you, chemistry is a hard subject and can be very dangerous.

I just say this for your safety, because based off of the question you are asking and the chemicals you are trying to get, I fear bad things will happen (and not because I think you are stupid, but because the key to be safe is experience and proper instruction).

Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 04, 2007, 09:06:44 PM
 :-X A bit late....well kinda... i havn't purchased any chemicals other than (sulfur and like two other ones form united nucear) but I did buy test tubes, a set with test tube rack and test tube utensils, plus some beakers, stoppers, flasks, alcohol burner, and..o ya a grad cylyneder...

But aside from that I will make sure to see any safety precautions that have to do with the chemicals and also post here before attempting any (even slightly) dangerous experiments

but thanks for the heads up

looks like a really nice set by the way (always been looking for one that isnt like the cheap toysrus but could never find it) too bad its $100 and ive already bought $50 worth of stuff

Thanks again and I'll make sure to be safe
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: constant thinker on January 04, 2007, 09:27:24 PM
Check the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet)for chemicals before you order them.

Calcium is more reactive is it not?

Sorry, I didn't look at a periodic table, but Ca is more reactive than Mg now that I have. If you don't know about the reactivity of metals, I suggest you google/wikipedia metal reactivity.

Back to what Borek said though...
What happens when you add Ca to just water?


Another thing about doing chemistry labs, you make want to look into distilled water depending on what kind of water you have.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: enahs on January 04, 2007, 09:52:03 PM
:-X A bit late....well kinda... i havn't purchased any chemicals other than (sulfur and like two other ones form united nucear) but I did buy test tubes, a set with test tube rack and test tube utensils, plus some beakers, stoppers, flasks, alcohol burner, and..o ya a grad cylyneder...

Too bad, as it is a very nice set. I actually just looked it up when making my post to you, and I have ordered one. I get asked all the time by friends various things, and this will allow me to demonstrate many things; and I do college Gen Chem 1 & 2 tutoring at home, so it will be very useful for illustration too (plus, I like Chemistry and it seems neat to have at home!).


That said, all the equipment you bought would work quite well with the set, and replace the cheaper plastic versions :).


Here is more info on it, if anybody is interested:
http://www.balancedscience.com/qsl_final_0312/chem_index.html
The experiments:
http://www.balancedscience.com/qsl_final_0312/chem_kit.html
And here is an example experiment:
http://www.balancedscience.com/qsl_final_0312/chem_sample.html

Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 05, 2007, 01:57:10 AM
awsome thanks for the links, what college do you go to by the way?


EDIT: went out and bought some epsom salt today, is there any slightly interesting experiments you can do with it?
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 05, 2007, 02:58:40 AM
By the way again... I just took a test tube, turned a Dust Remover can upside down, sparyed so I got liquid air or some type of liquid gas that boils away fairly quickly and then poured some Hydrogen Peroxide 3% in and the H2O2 froze and it bubbles up, turned sold, then Poured/shook the solid ice out of the tube and it feels kinda like starch with water....and fizzes pretty cool, and strangly unlike most dust removers that stuffs not flamable, wonder what its made of....
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: joeflsts on January 05, 2007, 07:33:24 PM
By the way again... I just took a test tube, turned a Dust Remover can upside down, sparyed so I got liquid air or some type of liquid gas that boils away fairly quickly and then poured some Hydrogen Peroxide 3% in and the H2O2 froze and it bubbles up, turned sold, then Poured/shook the solid ice out of the tube and it feels kinda like starch with water....and fizzes pretty cool, and strangly unlike most dust removers that stuffs not flamable, wonder what its made of....

One thing totally amazing about the internet is that there are vast resources available to you today that I didn't have when I was young.  For example you could google (that wasn't a verb when I was young) for either Epsom Salt or Magnesium Sulfate experiments and you would be impressed with the # of hits you will get.  One example is:

http://familyfun.go.com/parenting/learn/activities/feature/famf_science/famf_science7.html

Epsom Salts are a good starting material for relatively safe experiments.  I highly suggest that as you explore additional experiments always think through what you're going to do.  You'll find over time that you will understand your limitations.  I always try to understand what "could" happen to me if something went wrong.  As you age this becomes more of an issue!   ;D

Joe
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 05, 2007, 09:55:09 PM
Ya, I tried googling the salt but all the stuff i found is making salt crystals, nothing about actualy chemical reactions with it...
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: jdurg on January 05, 2007, 10:35:48 PM
Check the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet)for chemicals before you order them.

Calcium is more reactive is it not?

Sorry, I didn't look at a periodic table, but Ca is more reactive than Mg now that I have. If you don't know about the reactivity of metals, I suggest you google/wikipedia metal reactivity.

Back to what Borek said though...
What happens when you add Ca to just water?


Another thing about doing chemistry labs, you make want to look into distilled water depending on what kind of water you have.

First off, MSDS sheets are pretty good for letting you know potential dangers involving a chemical, but you should probably take that information with a grain of salt.  MSDS sheets don't do a very good job of explaining just how likely a dangerous reaction is to occur.  If there is even the slightest of possibilites of a nasty reaction happening, it will be indicated in the MSDS but there will be no mention of the chances of it happening.  This is a problem with the MSDS sheets.  They don't mention how likely a bad reaction is to occur.

In regards to calcium, Calcium metal in plain water reacts a tad bit slower than lithium does, but in a similar manner.  The thing is, the reaction generates a LOT of heat and as the temperature of the Ca and H2O rises, the reaction rate increases.  So asking if you put calcium metal into a solution of magnesium ions and get Mg metal out is like asking if you can put lithium metal into a solution of iron ions and get iron metal out.  It's just not going to happen.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 05, 2007, 10:51:57 PM
Wait, so It woudn't be the same as haveing a solution of Copper Chloride and putting aluminium in it and you get Aluminium Chloride Solution and Copper metal?


http://cgi.ebay.com/2oz-Clear-Plastic-Jars-with-Lids-NEW-Qty-25-buySAFE_W0QQitemZ150077238889QQihZ005QQcategoryZ31487QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

are those decent jars to hold chemicals so I have them when I need them and so I don't have to open the main bulk of my chemicals every time I need some? They look nice, just want to see if any of you have any ideas on them.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: Borek on January 06, 2007, 05:59:42 AM
Wait, so It woudn't be the same as haveing a solution of Copper Chloride and putting aluminium in it and you get Aluminium Chloride Solution and Copper metal?

Nope. Some metals will react directly with water. You may safely assume it will be done by all alkali metals and all alkaline earth metals starting with calcium.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: woelen on January 06, 2007, 09:32:02 AM
Those jars are a little bit large to my opinion for storage of your day to day usage of chemicals, but they look fine otherwise. Glass vials are even better. They are not porous for air and moisture:

http://cgi.ebay.com/144-pcs-Clear-4-Dram-Glass-Vials-Screw-caps-20x70mm_W0QQitemZ140070922268QQihZ004QQcategoryZ26409QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Ideal for storing small amounts of chemicals, which you use on a day by day basis, and also nice for displaying things. When such a small thing is empty, then you can refill it from your stock.
Title: Re: What are some good starting chemicals?
Post by: mafiaparty303 on January 06, 2007, 02:34:06 PM
Ok, ya I was looking at those just yesterday and I was thinking they were a bit to small but now that I think about it they are a good size for small scale.  :D

Thanks