Chemical Forums
Specialty Chemistry Forums => Citizen Chemist => Topic started by: mafiaparty303 on February 11, 2007, 05:40:37 PM
-
What does it mean when the concentration is : Concentration 12 Molar?
-
12 mol/L.
-
please explain? 12mol/L??? 12 mol of HCl in one liter of the stuff? How high concentration would that be in percentage?
-
http://www.chembuddy.com/?left=concentration&right=toc
-
please explain? 12mol/L??? 12 mol of HCl in one liter of the stuff? How high concentration would that be in percentage?
Really freakin high. Dangerously high.
If you do not know what molarity is you have no business playing with 12 molar HCl.
-
Somewhere around 37%. This is "conc HCl." You definitely don't want to play with it. Accidentally getting a whiff of the fumes will burn your nasal passages pretty badly (and make everything smell like swimming pool for the rest of the day).
-
I know what molarity is, (12 molar...not that very descriptive when it dosnt even say per liter or something)... and ya funny thing is, I found this on a site for kid's chemistry thing! http://www.hometrainingtools.com/ thats the link, the prices are cheap I must say.
-
That's crazy! At least it's only in a 30mL bottle. You had me really scared for a minute there... ;)
-
ya haha so should it be safe for an amature chemist? I'm not totaly clueless about chemitry and chemical harm.
-
12 molar...not that very descriptive when it dosnt even say per liter or something
Molar genreally means moles per litre (mol/L) so not really that ambiguous.
haha so should it be safe for an amature chemist?
Read the MSDS for HCl before using. This will tell you whether you are qualified to use it safely or not.
-
mafiaparty303 -
It appears that the site you cite is geared for projects where there is direct adult supervision.
-
ya haha so should it be safe for an amature chemist? I'm not totaly clueless about chemitry and chemical harm.
Any chemical is safe for at least some amateur chemists. It is the amateur chemist, who determines whether a chemical is safe or not. Chemicals can be classified as
- idiot proof
- safe for all amateur chemists
- safe for some amateur chemists
- safe for only the most experiences and most careful amateur chemists
- not safe at all for any (amateur) chemist
Only very few chemicals belong to the first class and the last class. I would put conc. HCl in the third group.
-
OK, thanks. I think i'll be fine then with the HCl if im careful with it. Which I will be.
-
Use a hood if you have one available, or work in a very, very well-ventilated area. You SO don't want a sinus infection as a result of accidental HCl inhalation...
have fun!
-
When working with conc. HCl, always remember that the HCl molecules are volatile (of course, this should be readily apparent once you open the container and start smelling a strong acidic odor which seems like it could burn your nose hairs off). So, always keep your HCl container tightly closed when it is not being used. When your HCl container is open and you are pipetting solution out of it, I like to waft the vapors away from me by fanning my hand. Also, be very cautious if you wear contact lenses (or better yet don't wear contact lenses when working with conc. HCl or any other volatile substance) as your contact lenses can adsorb some of the HCl vapors from the air.
-
I am a little concerned about all these concerns about the "extreme dangers" of HCl ;). I buy this stuff in the hardware store in 5 liter jerry cans, at concentrations of around 30% to 35%. Yes, this stuff fumes heavily. It is used by the liter for cleaning walls, concrete constructions etc. All those people, using HCl are non-chemists and they all are happily working with it.
So, if you play with the 30 ml vial of this, just use common sense and don't inhale too much of the fumes. If you accidently inhale some of the fume, don't worry, and be more careful next time. Avoid contact with skin and eyes. Again, if some comes on your skin, simply rinse it away with water and be more careful next time. Only contact with the eyes is really serious, so avoid that at all cost.
The only real good advice is the use of contact lenses. Yes, that can be a problem with conc. HCl.
I don't know the price of the 30 ml HCl, but you probably overpaid a lot. You can buy it in gallon quantities at 25% to 35% (depending on country) for just $10 or so, and that material is almost colorless and suitable for almost every home chemistry experiment.
-
*smacks forehead* Duh. Muriatic acid, hardware stores. Forgot about that! Didn't know it was so concentrated, though. :)
-
i havnt bought anything yet, and ya I wasn't sure about the hardware grade HCl, I e-mailed the hardware store and they have it as muriatic acid, and I asked if it was only the acid or other additives but they never wrote back, so is it just the acid? or other additives?
-
Just check the container. Odds are it's just HCl and H2O.
I honestly hate storing concentrated acids. My method for longer term storage is a plastic container that has baking soda at the bottom, and foam around the glass bottles I keep my concentrated stuff in. It's worked well for my 98% sulfuric acid so far. One thing I like though is the use of Teflon tape around the cap. I highly recommend picking some up, especially if your going to have to store the HCl.
-
i went to homedepot, but on the internet the catalog showed no sign of muratic acid, HCl nothing, so i went with my dad and there was nothing there that actually said HCl, Muratic Acid! it was like.... Caution Sodium Hydroxide and stuff but not HCl...
-
Be aware that HCl vapor that sneaks out of the bottle will corrode anything nearby. I once had a bottle of 31% hardware store "muriatic acid" under the sink, and I think HCl vapors got out of the plastic bottle and started to work on the metal.
-
Yeah you don't want to mess with something that concentrated. I deal with chloromethane a lot, but in concentrations no more than 1-5 M.
Even hypothetically that concetration is utterly ridiculous. ;)
-
I actually find this thread to be very interesting. Not because our new "citizen" chemist in training didn't know what 12 Molar meant but the reaction given to his original query. I am a firm believer in giving people advice and then allowing them to make their own decisions. If the intent of this forum is to tell people they have "no business" in experimentation then I'm not sure I understand the intent of the forum to begin with. If you aren't willing to share information either don't respond or simply shut down the sub-forum.
I'm not trying to be a smart-butt but I think the intent of this forum, in general, is education. I think educating people on the risks is a better approach then simply telling someone they shouldn't do something.
Now let me share a story:
About 25 years ago I was first cutting my teeth on experimenting with the procedure to make hydrogen gas. The experiment was very straight forward - combine HCl and Zn in a flask - run it through some tubing into a beaker of water and replace the water in a water-filled test tube with hydrogen gas. Light gas in the tube and enjoy the "pop" sound it made. Well my science teacher at the time gave me about 30ml of concentrated HCl which I diluted but I eventually ran out. I had an excess of Zn but not much I could do with it at the time without HCl.
My mother then sent me to the hardware store to purchase Muratic Acid in order to remove some scale on the bath tub. I purchased it and while wearing rubber gloves started to disssolve the calcium buildup on the tub. I noticed almost immediately that the HCl gas I was familiar with from my Hydrogen experiment was very similar to the fumes now coming off the bottle of this nasty smelling calcium dissolver. After reading the ingredients I was astonished to learn that I now possessed a little less than a gallon of Hydrochloric Acid. I was in heaven! Over the course of the next summer I created enough hydrogen to float the Hindenberg.
Joe
-
nice story, and ya I agree I don't appreciate how people just say "Dont do it your not experienced enogh" because they were there are some point in thier lives so thank you again.
BTW did you buy the HCl at a common hardware store like Lowes, homedepot? or a town hardware store?
-
nice story, and ya I agree I don't appreciate how people just say "Dont do it your not experienced enogh" because they were there are some point in thier lives so thank you again.
BTW did you buy the HCl at a common hardware store like Lowes, homedepot? or a town hardware store?
You can pick up HCl at any Home Depot under the brand name Muratic Acid. Now I want to be clear it is nasty stuff and will burn you if you don't treat it with the utmost respect.
Joe
-
:oI WENT and looked for it but nothing there! where did you find it? what section? I even searched the internet catalog for it and nothing. And ya, if i get it i'm gonna make sure i stay safe...as safe as possible.
-
Swimming pool owners add HCl to their pools to help control clorination.
How are you going to "make sure you stay safe", maybe you should put this info here for others to read.
-
FOUNNNDDD ITTTTT ;D :D major score, just went on the Lowe's Store Website and they have it! I'll probably pick some up one of these days...maybe next week!
As for safety, if I am working outside with long pants, shirt, goggles, the surgical gloves from the store, and maybe even just a dust mask should I be safe if I'm careful? Or do I really need a full on respirator with the correct acid replacments? I'd probably just dilute the big 1 gallon one they have at lowes for $4 and then put a small amount in a glass bottle with a eyedropper screw cap. Then store the big one gallon outside near the trash bins or something? Does that sound good? Any possible hazards?
-
How will I stay safe? Hmm.. I'll start by not pouring the big one gallon jug over my arms, wear some goggles and everythign else i described up there ^^^^ in my last post.
-
As for you clothes - I think a lab coat will be safer than just long pants. In the case you splash some acid on the coat it won't get into contact with your skin fast, and even if, it is much easier to get rid of lab coat than to get rid of long pants.
Plus, no idea if the surgical gloves will survive contact with concentrated HCl. If you want to use gloves, go either for the real acid resistant ones, or at least for the kind used for house cleaning, they are much thicker and should survive much longer.
Coat, gloves, glasses and well ventilated place should be enough as long as you are carefull.
-
Many labs have a emergency shower with a ring you pull down on. If you were a lab coat, it is the first thing to disintegrate. Otherwise be prepared to be nakid.
:)
-
I've always been a little afraid of something horrible happening in the lab. I would really hate to have to strip in front of everyone I work with. :-[
-
I've always been a little afraid of something horrible happening in the lab. I would really hate to have to strip in front of everyone I work with
You would definitely want to strip if you spilled large amounts of acid on yourself. Who cares if you have to get naked, at least you won't burn yourself. I once heard of a guy who spilled some sort of acid on himself and refused to strip down past his underpants because he was embarrassed, needless to say he severely burnt his manhood, which could have been avoided by stripping.
How will I stay safe? Hmm.. I'll start by not pouring the big one gallon jug over my arms, wear some goggles and everythign else i described up there ^^^^ in my last post.
I think the most important thing is to protect your eyes. Many people in Australia have lost their eyesight using swimming pool acid because they don't realise the risks involved. Usually long pants, closed shoes, long sleeves, lab coat and goggles along with the dishwashing gloves described by Borek should be enough. I would certainly not store the gallon container near the trash, that is a bad idea. Store it locked in a shed, preferebly on some sort of acid proof shelf or tray.
-
Ok, what would be an alternative? Because I don't really have a shed to store it and I went out and bought some today with my parents. This brings me to another questions. On the contents list it says 29% HCl 71% Inert Ingredients
What do they mean by Inert Igredients?
Thanks.
-
Ok, what would be an alternative? Because I don't really have a shed to store it and I went out and bought some today with my parents. This brings me to another questions. On the contents list it says 29% HCl 71% Inert Ingredients
What do they mean by Inert Igredients?
Thanks.
Probably unpurified water.
Just store it some place where there is no possibility of somebody knocking it over, or some animal. Also clearly label that it is hazardous.
And do a small test on the gloves you are using and make sure they are acid resistant. Nothing worse then expecting something to protect you and it does not!
Now, what are you going to do with all this acid? Got any good experiment ideas?
Also, Pop Quiz:
Which is more safer and why should you not do the other?
Add Acid to Water
Or
Add Water to Acid?
-
Acid into water, I'm in Honors Chemistry 10th grade. And I've had my fare share of close calls with dangerous stuff in my years...mostly to do with fire. But ya I was thinking about that...cutting up some of the glove matterial and submerging it in the acid to see if it dissolves or what not.
-
Ok, what would be an alternative? Because I don't really have a shed to store it and I went out and bought some today with my parents. This brings me to another questions. On the contents list it says 29% HCl 71% Inert Ingredients
What do they mean by Inert Igredients?
Kind of depends where you live I guess. When you said to store it with the trash cans I imagine that being outside in the yard where possibly anyone (little children, pets) could get hold of it. It needs to be somewhere away from children and pets, clearly labelled as acid and labelled that it is dangerous. Any utility cabinet, closet, locker etc will work, as long as it is away from food, kids etc etc.
29% is almost concentrated. the 71% is most likely just water.
~~oops enahs got in ahead of me sorry~~
-
well no little children in my house, only me and my mom once my dad goes back to Canada, plus we have a gate to our back yard. And my dog would be the only one then...so ya im gonna look for another place.
-
How about a lockable storage cabinet that has vents?
Then the shed would work I guess.
-
Teflon tape like crazy the cap. That may cut down on leaking fumes.
Another thing about it being outside is sunlight. I would imagine that if the bottle warmed up the fuming would increase, and there would be greater pressure on the bottle causing greater chance of leakage. This may be paranoia/speculation, but you never can be too safe.
With the HCl you may want to consider making various chloride salts. Then perform some flame tests. Those are always fun, and can be pretty cool.
-
ya I was thinking about that, what are some nice things I can mix with the HCl for some flame tests and other experiments in general?
-
Copper salts are cool, and so are lithium salts.
The wikipedia article on the flame test may be a good start for ideas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_test
When I did the flame test last, I was just handed various metal salts can told to have fun (ok actually to observe and try to identify an unknown).
-
Is it Ok, if I dont have a bunsen burner? I have an alcohol burner that goes on isopropyl 90%
-
Have some questions about HCl, first off what is up with being safe to wear contacts, I know its unsafe but what specifically happens? I heard its like eye spasms why how? How low should I bring the concentration by from 29% to what? 10%? 3%? A good experimentation concentrate would be good.
NaHCO3 + HCl --> NaCl + H2O + CO2 is that right? Its just a guess.
-
NaHCO3 + HCl --> NaCl + H2O + CO2 is that right? Its just a guess.
Try and balance this reaction.
-
It is balanced...
NaHCO3 + HCl --> NaCl + H2O + CO2
One Na here,,,one over there....One Cl here...one Cl there. 2 Hydrogens on the reactants.... two on the products.....and then 3 oxygens,. One carbon there....one carbon here..
its balanced.
-
This is always the first step. Now the next one. What do you want to obtain - carbon dioxide or NaCl or both, or just to see bubbling?
Note, concentrated HCl is much more safe than H2SO4. Some people even drink a very diluted HCl (0.01M) as a drug (concentrated HCl diluted 2000 times). But in every case use gogle for goodness sake
-
NaHCO3.... isnt that baking soda??used to neutralize the acid?
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baking_soda
-
NaHCO3 + HCl ? NaCl + H2O + CO2 (gas)
So I was right ;D
-
If I read through this thread, then I still have the feeling that the dangers of HCl are strongly exaggerated.
Of course it is nasty stuff and of course one has to be careful, but the risks really are not as severe as this thread may suggest.
Even if you get it on your skin, you don't have serious burns at once. Just quickly rinse it away with lots of water and indeed, if you get it in your clothes, take them out and rinse the affected area of your skin with water. But that's all. No need to panic, conc. HCl does not burn in seconds, but in minutes, so you have the time to get rid of it.
The reason I write this, is that I think it is very important to differentiate between dangers. If everything is called "extremely dangerous", then really dangerous situations can occur.
Suppose HCl is described as extremely dangerous. But after some time, person XXX works comfortably with it, and even if small accidents happen with the acid, he simply cleans up, and no ill effects.
A few months later, person XXX acquires some 20% HF, which also is described as extremely dangerous. Person XXX knows what "extremely dangerous" means for HCl, so he treats the 20% HF in the same way. Person XXX has some small accident with the HF, similar to the accidents he had with the HCl. A few hours later, person XXX is no more....
Moral of the story: Classify chemicals, according to danger. I would call conc. HCl a moderately dangerous chemical. It is quite corrosive and must be treated with respect, but there are other MUCH more dangerous chemicals (e.g. conc. H2SO4 already is more dangerous, conc. HF is insanely dangerous).
I myself work comfortably with conc. HCl. I also work on a regular basis with conc. H2SO4, although with that I am already much more careful. HF is something which is not in my homelab, and never will. I simply feel not confident that I ever can work safely with that material.
And finally, a nice tip if you need to store the acid.
Take out some acid in a small glass bottle (e.g. 100 ml) with a plastic cap. Use this as working amount.
Put the remaining jerrycan (or large bottle) of acid in a thick plastic bag and tightly bind this up. Put another plastic bag around this and tightly bind this up. Put the acid with the two bags in a dry and not too cold place. This works perfectly well for me. I noticed, that HCl is corrosive to nearby things, if they can become humid. In dry and not too cold air, I never had such problems. Having the two bags around it makes emission of the acid almost neglectable.
-
I like the two bag idea. I went and did that with my 98%+ H2SO4. I have a small amount (~25-50ml) in a little glass bottle that has a dropper in the cap. That's the bottle I work with for experiments. The main bottle is a 250ml bottle.
I have to agree with the HCl and HF scenario presented by woelen. Can the average home chemist even buy the stuff (I have no intention of ever getting it)?
-
I have to agree with the HCl and HF scenario presented by woelen. Can the average home chemist even buy the stuff (I have no intention of ever getting it)?
HCl - no problem ;)
HF - even if you can't buy it, you have to be carefull when working with fluorides in acidic solutions.
While I have adressed some HCl dangers and adviced to use coat I wholeheartedly agree with Wilco.
-
I've seen HF listed at more than one place that I could buy from, but I'm with Woelen in that stuff ain't getting anywhere near my lab.
-
Hey Mark,
Yep, read this -
http://www-safety.deas.harvard.edu/advise/accident.html
Find the header "Accident Description". This one will describe just how "simple" accidents happen.
Jole
-
Moral of the story: Classify chemicals, according to danger. I would call conc. HCl a moderately dangerous chemical. It is quite corrosive and must be treated with respect, but there are other MUCH more dangerous chemicals (e.g. conc. H2SO4 already is more dangerous, conc. HF is insanely dangerous).
Hydrochlorice acid: Classified as hazardous according to the criteria of EU Annex 1 and NOHSC. Causes burns and irritating to respiratory system.
Hydrofluoric acid 50%: Classified as hazardous according to the criteria of EU Annex 1 and NOHSC. Very toxic by inhalation, in contact with skin and if swallowed. Causes severe burns.
Just read the MSDS before you use any chemical (as I have stated before), this way you can make up your own mind without relying on other peoples opinions.
-
To my opinion, MSDS's are not the best source of information. Dangers are exaggerated too much and the there is not sufficient discriminating power between MSDS's. That is exactly what I wrote in my previous post.
of course, you can skim an MSDS to get an impression, but if you compare MSDS's of e.g. table salt and hydroquinone, then both compounds seem equally risky. Well, I can assure you that hydroquinone is more risky (albeit still not that risky). Even if I read the MSDS of table salt, and I put besides that the one for NaCN, then I may get the impression that if such strong words are used for table salt, then NaCN, although somewhat more dangerous, is not that bad. You all know otherwise.
Also, what irritates me is the listing of incompatibles in many MSDS's. They are full of warnings for violent and explosive reactions. I must say, I have tried numerous ones of these, and in 99% of all cases nothing happens. These warnings always are for the most extreme conditions. As an example, K2Cr2O7 is incompatible with plastics. Yes, K2Cr2O7 may react violently with plastics at 1000 C during a fire, but normally it doesn't (it even is shipped in plastic bottles). MSDS's do not mention the conditions for such reactions. In case of fire, almost any chemical is dangerous and then even table salt can give rise to really nasty compounds in combination with certain organics, such as present in common household waste.
What I am missing is a really good source of documents, which mention the dangers of chemicals.
-
MSDS are written for lawyers, not chemists, unfortunately. Many of them are quite useless, IMHO.
The Journal of Chemical Education has been putting out a series of chemical information sheets called CLIP, that is an attempt for a more useful MSDS-replacement. I couldn't figure out how to attach files, so some links to some examples:
http://lochkness.com/CLIP/CopperSulfate.pdf
http://lochkness.com/CLIP/Glycerol.pdf
http://lochkness.com/CLIP/Sodium.pdf
http://lochkness.com/CLIP/SodiumThiosulfate.pdf
These tend to be more useful than most MSDS. However, some MSDS are better than others. Ones that have a numeric code, 0-4, quantifying the hazards, I like.
-
Even if I read the MSDS of table salt, and I put besides that the one for NaCN, then I may get the impression that if such strong words are used for table salt, then NaCN, although somewhat more dangerous, is not that bad. You all know otherwise.
The MSDS for NaCl makes it quite clear that it is no where near as dangerous as NaCN, have you read the MSDS for these compounds? Surely you would agree that the MSDS tells the reader quite clearly that NaCl is not classified as hazardous, while NaCN is classified as hazardous. Also the lethal dose for NaCl is enourmous in comparison to the lethal dose of NaCN.
I think that your point is that HCl is not as dangerous as everyone is saying, however this depends on the circumstance. The truth is people have been seriously hurt using HCl (ie loss of eye sight as an example). The best thing to do is not take liberties with any chemicals.
With MSDS, check the hazard rating and what the hazard classification is (toxic, corrosive etc etc) check the lethal dose as this will give you an idea of the potency, check the routes of exposure (breathe, skin, mouth etc), check the exposure limits (how long can you be exposed before suffering some injury).
Mike
-
The MSDS for NaCl makes it quite clear that it is no where near as dangerous as NaCN, have you read the MSDS for these compounds?
It depends on the particular MSDS. Some go on and on with 'boilerplate' warnings that are so verbose that they effectively obscure the very important fact that one is a LOT more hazardous than the other. (Then there are those printed in ALL CAPS, who's idea was that?)
Some MSDS do a much better job, however.
-
Funny thing haha...well not really but kinda... my chem sub the other day told us a story about HF and said that once in New York since there isnt much space to do work and stuff in apartments people go to these warehouse places that are cleaned out and then rented out to people in small sections so you can build yourself a table or w/e and then leave, so this guy was took old bath tubs and used HF to clean them and then sold them as antiques, next to him was a lady that was painting on a huge canvas and one day after the man had left the lady couldnt find a ladder to get to the top of her canvas and so she went nearby and borrowed some buckets of the HF not knowing it was HF and used them to stand on.... as you can guess she fell in and began to melt away into a puddle of nothing.. just kidding, but yes she fell in and after about two weeks the HF reacted with the Ca in her bones and so she was eaten inside out with HF.... the guy went to jail for two years (manslaughter) for not labeling the chemicals and i think not having a license for the HF...
moral of the story.... Dont use HF. :o
-
Sorry, but the correct moral - unless I am missing something - is to not use HF filled buckets for ladder ;)
-
ya That's a good one too