Chemical Forums
Specialty Chemistry Forums => Citizen Chemist => Topic started by: Glaudge on March 25, 2007, 12:09:58 AM
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i was wondering how to make nitric acid at home without using a compound that ends in nitrate already, and with stuff obtainable in stores, and how to go about making it,
thx, glaudge
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Try Google. Out of curiosity, what do you want the nitric acid for?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_acid
The above link gives a reasonable good explanation of the current methods of production but not the exact recipe. It is also a little indirect in letting you know the difficulties (including safety) of doing this at home. As a citizen scientist I have found that the production of nitric acid from other than nitrates is problematic especially if you want any concentration that requires additional steps. It surely is not as easy as producing hydrochloric acid. Some people who do etching with it find that getting it easily like at the corner hardware store is nearly impossible and have to deal with regulatory issues.
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now my question is is there any company that sells the stuff without having to have the following:
license
credit card (using printout order forms or CODs)
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Nitric Acid
Formula: HNO3
Synonyms: –
Suppliers:
1. Some hydroponics suppliers sell it as a "pH Minus" (i.e. an agent to decrease the pH of water) for use in hard water areas.
Elements Hydroponics Centre (UK)
GroWell Hydroponics (UK)
HydroHobby (UK)
2. Some alternative photographic suppliers sell it.
Artcraft (USA)
3. Some art suppliers catering to serious artists sell it.
Kremer Pigments (Global)
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If you buy it in any significant amounts a black chevy suburban may come down your driveway, and some men in black suits may come knocking.
If you do happen to find a supplier, and a black chevy suburban doesn't show up, please post/tell me where you got it from.
Good Luck.
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i was wondering how to make nitric acid at home without using a compound that ends in nitrate already, and with stuff obtainable in stores, and how to go about making it,
thx, glaudge
In which country are you? If you are in the UK, or mainland Europe, then you can easily buy it. I just buy it locally in my city (in the Netherlands), at 53% concentration and no NO2 yellow contamination for EUR 9 per liter. In the UK it can be purchased at 38% concentration as pH-minus, in Germany it can be purchased online from chemical suppliers.
I am really amazed to see that getting nitric acid is so hard on the other side of the ocean. That's a pity, this chemical is a basic thing, which should be in the home lab of a somewhat more experienced citizen chemist.
Making it from non-nitrate sources is VERY hard. Making it from nitrites is an option, but if you can't get nitric acid or nitrates, then I'm quite sure you also can't get nitrites.
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I am really amazed to see that getting nitric acid is so hard on the other side of the ocean.
It is not.
It is actually very easy.
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I think if you are 35 it is easier to get stuff here than if you are 15. The magic age may be 18 or 21. The process to get permits may seem trivial on the Internet, but I wonder if is worth the effort. Lastly, access to a credit card or pay pal may be of great importance as well. I also wonder if you live in Texas what are the hoops you have to go though. In New York you will find that having sparklers to be illegal. So enahs may have it easy, while others may have more roadblocks. I have yet to find nitric acid in the hardware store or pharmacy.
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It is true, it probably does depend a lot on what state you live in. However, I have never had any trouble, ever, getting permits for dangerous chemicals. And age is a factor for sure. Also, you can not have felony's on your records when trying to get the permits, or at least, it will make it much more difficult.
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Is there a standard site for getting permits?
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I'm not aware of any specific sites, but nitric acid is a 'flagged' chemical for individuals (or in sufficient quantity or with the right combination of chemicals, for companies as well). That means the ATF may show up and see what you want to do with it. You think this is a joke: it isn't. I've known people that have received threatening letters from the DOJ and the ATF about the stuff they've bought. You can find unscrupulous merchants who will sell stuff to individuals, but that's dicey. The sad fact is, that after September 11, many of our rights and freedoms have been curtailed to 'protect' us from terrorists. Nitric acid is much harder to obtain than before; I used to be able to get it at the hardware store as a wood conditioner (though it usually just created cracks in the wood), but no longer.
Just bear in mind that while nitric acid is a common and very useful chemical for many aspects of chemistry, it will always be under suspicion because it is a precursor to almost every major high explosive known.
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...The sad fact is, that after September 11, many of our rights and freedoms have been curtailed to 'protect' us from terrorists. Nitric acid is much harder to obtain than before; I used to be able to get it at the hardware store as a wood conditioner (though it usually just created cracks in the wood), but no longer.
Just bear in mind that while nitric acid is a common and very useful chemical for many aspects of chemistry, it will always be under suspicion because it is a precursor to almost every major high explosive known.
It's both a good and bad thing that it's harder to find. Good because then Joe Bomber won't be able to just go to his local hardware store to make his bomb. Instead he'll have to go through back channels which makes it a little more difficult, and he'll have a harder time obtaining sufficient quantities to make a large enough to boom to drop Bill Financial Building. It's bad though because now John Good, a law abiding citizen, who wants to do an experiment involving nitric acid will have a hard time getting it.
Sigh... In the end Joe Bomber can still get nitric acid, and he cal still make a bomb by other means. The home chemist yet again gets smothered.
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I think it has more to do with frivolous lawsuits then stopping terrorism. When you live in a country where you can sue a company for your own injury through your own misusage and stupidity, and either win or force to settle out of court to stop wasting millions, all these things that are easily potentially harmful are being made harder to get…and have been long before 9-11.
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I know this is kind of ambiguous, but you can check out the US government's website.
http://www.usa.gov/
Look on the left side. I suggest checking laws and regulations, maybe federal and state government might be helpful also.
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Enahs,
In most cases, I agree with you that it is to avoid lawsuits. However, in the case of nitric acid, I would bet that most of it has to do with bomb makers. This is not the companies denying access--it's the ATF putting you on a watchlist. Was it lawsuit related, it would be like many other services or even chemicals that you would have to sign a waiver stating you won't misuse it or sue the manufacturer.
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I think i found a pretty legitimate company called chemical-supermarket
heres a link:
[url]http://www.chemical-supermarket.com//url]
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nowadays with the internet, any "joe bomber" (as stated) can easily go online and find the right- or worse yet- the wrong bomb recipe with their nitric acid.
they are putting pple in jail for murder with modern evidence- doing google searches on the materials used for the crimes. google has saved every search since they've been on the wire.
back in the day you had to have a clue
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google has saved every search since they've been on the wire.
Have you heard about a single case in which this information was shared with any gov agency?
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google has saved every search since they've been on the wire.
Have you heard about a single case in which this information was shared with any gov agency?
well the D.A. office im positive about- a guy went to jail for murdering his wife. he did extensive searches on the materials and methods for the murder on google.com :o
the documentary i watched concerning this was saying that google will give up this info if there is an investigation- so a warrant would have to be issued. otherwise, the FBI and such can not have access to this data.
in any case- to find out what you purchase, who you call, ss#, DOB, all addresses, and every parking ticket- security laws can be legally broken by contacting choice point
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChoicePoint
not sure if an idividual can access this data- but the government and businesses do so at will. for a price.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_acid
The above link gives a reasonable good explanation of the current methods of production but not the exact recipe. It is also a little indirect in letting you know the difficulties (including safety) of doing this at home. As a citizen scientist I have found that the production of nitric acid from other than nitrates is problematic especially if you want any concentration that requires additional steps. It surely is not as easy as producing hydrochloric acid. Some people who do etching with it find that getting it easily like at the corner hardware store is nearly impossible and have to deal with regulatory issues.
You can purchase 34%+ muriatic (hydrochloric) acid for $6 at Tractor Hardware Supply in California.
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muriatic acid is hydrochloric acid not nitric acid
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you can make nitric acid from NaHSO4, and a nitrate salt. Dissolve the two in a boiling solution, and distill. It will have a water impurity, but it does contain nitric acid.
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it is quiet hard to find nitric acid but it would be easier if you buy silver nitrate and extract the silver through the process of electrolysis and i think you will be left with the nitric acid. ;)
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i am not sure that Doctor science entry is intirely correct
Can someone confirm?
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Chemically it is not entirely incorrect, but economically nonsensical.
It is possible to electrolyse silver nitrate getting silver on cathode and oxygen on anode, and in such solution Ag+ would be replaced by H+. But using relatively expensive reagent to produce something that is cheap is absurd.
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I had an old scrap gold ring that I wanted to recover the gold from, and it would have been nice to mix up some aqua regia and dissolve the thing, and subsequently precipitate the gold with SO2, oxalic acid, ferrous ion, or alkaline peroxide.
but once a few years ago I did that with a small amount and it turned out that the tiny amount of HCL vapors escaped into the garage, only a tiny amount, not enough to dissolve any tools or anything, but, that tiny amount did catalyze or activate all the iron in the area, including my tools, clamps I use for woodworking, etc.
So alater time when I wanted to recover the gold, I mixed up a salt solution and just made the ring anodic. It worked. Plus, during the course of the electrolysis I hit on the exact conditions necessary to cause the gold to plate out on the glass. It was beautiful. This is normally difficult to do, and requires formaldehyde, a reducing sugar, and careful control of conditions, etc. So, by not going the easy aqua regia route, I ended up discovering a way to produce coherent layers of metals on glass without the use of traditional materials required to do so. This came in handy when wanting to make glass conductive for a Graetzel-style photovoltaic cell.
I think people who desire to play with explosives should re-think their desires, as there are many other better and more productive ways to spend one's time. I think its the responsibility of all responsible chemists to never post anything openly that could be used by others to do something unlawful, as it could be construed as aiding and abeting, in addition to just not being right. Anyone who has a legitimate use for nitric acid or any other chemical should have no problem in their procurement, its only those having bad motives who need to worry and be secretive. Desiring to be secretive can be a tip-off of bad intents.
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One bad apple will always ruin the game for the rest of us honest citizens out there. It happens everywhere, and it sucks.
As for synthesizing nitric acid, there are two methods that I would recommend that should be possible in the States, provided you aren't synthesizing industrial sized amounts.
By reacting potassium nitrate (KNO3, a common fertilizer ingredient) with sulfuric acid (H2SO4) and distilling, you will get red nitric acid, which has a fair bit of nitrogen dioxide in it. By lowering the pressure to around 30 kPa, the NO2 will be removed and you will be left with nitric acid. As for obtaining the reactants, I know I was able to purchase two pounds of 80% potassium nitrate on eBay three years ago. Sulfuric acid is commonly used by ecofriendly chemists who like making biodiesel. You can also find this on eBay for relatively cheap (1 litre goes for around $15-20). You can probably build your own pressure chamber, just look around on the internet.
The other method is to oxidize ammonia. This will give you a lower concentration of nitric acid since water will form along with it. You could always distill it though if you wanted higher concentrations. Bleach and hydrogen peroxide are two excellent oxidizers that can be bought from your local hardware store and ammonia is a common cleaning agent.
One of the main reasons nitric acid is harder to obtain in the States is because it is very easy to synthesize nitrous oxide from it. It is also commonly used as a reagent in the synthesis of some designer drugs. Even acetone is difficult to obtain now because of all the meth labs that pop up everywhere.
Oh, and for the record, it's now ATFE (they added explosives), and they don't commonly drive black suburbans. They typically drive Crown Vics, since they're slightly less inconspicuous. They usually only use SUVs for raids. I'm very close friends with a former undercover agent who's been with the agency since the 80's.
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OK, everyone is talking about where to buy it and when you buy too much. Let me tell you this, IT IS EXPENSIVE AS ALL HELL TO BUY A CUP FULL!!! Since your a Chemist/ Scientist You probably have flasks and sets.
Ingredients:
1. Sulfuric Acid (Cheap, find at any store like Lowe's or Home Depot, would be under liquid drain cleaner, probably like $5-10)
2. Sodium or Potassium Nitrate (Potassium Nitrate is a Stump Remover chemical. Sodium Nitrate is the Replacement Salt stuff. Each around $2-8)
3. Water (Tap is Fine)
Materials:
1. Round Bottom Flask
2. Beaker
3. A Condenser
4. A Still-head with a glass stopper at the end.
5. A glass oil burner
6. A Burning top
Measurements:
50 grams of Pure Nitrate. 75ml of Sulfuric acid.
Steps:
1. Put the Nitrate into the Round bottom flask.
2. Put the Sulfuric Acid into the flask with it.
3. Put the Still-head Onto the opening of the flask.
4. Attach the Condenser to the open side of the Still-head.
5. Place the beaker under the end of the Condenser.
And your done.
PS. This may be a little much. It yields a small amount of nitric acid. But with this method I found. The Concentration isn't like 30 or 40 at best when you buy it at the store. This yields around 70% concentration. So you can spend $30 for around 500ML for it. Or use this process and get around 10-30ML of a more pure substance for around the same price. Since we didn't actually use all of the ingredients, we can make around 2 more batches. Which would put you at around 80-100ML. Hope this helps ;). Just message me if you need to know anything about: Electrostatic Appliance, Acids, Bases, Corrosive materials, toxic chemicals made easy, and high explosive guides. All the stuff I use I either refine, or make from other substances so that i can be assured that I have the highest quality Elements and Compounds.
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Just in case - please read forum rules (http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=33740.0). Especially the very first point.
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my bad, didnt read the rules.
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I live in Turkey,and you can easily buy %20-25 nitric acid as lime dissolver. I still don't understand why they ban nitric acid in USA etc. The terrorists or so probably won't buy nitric acid from hardware stores. They've got a lot of channels and banning nitric acid does not change anything. Also,if they ban nitric acid they should also ban bleach,cos you can easily make potassium chlorate from bleach.
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I live in Turkey,and you can easily buy %20-25 nitric acid as lime dissolver. I still don't understand why they ban nitric acid in USA etc. The terrorists or so probably won't buy nitric acid from hardware stores. They've got a lot of channels and banning nitric acid does not change anything. Also,if they ban nitric acid they should also ban bleach,cos you can easily make potassium chlorate from bleach.
preaching: choir
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People in the US can buy a lot of KNO3 marketed as stump remover. Here in Canada, I have not seen it.
Also, people in the US can buy 20 Kg bags of NH4NO3 from their local hardware store. I haven't see this here either.
You can even buy "cold packs" with NH4NO3 or urea. Here, I've only seen packs with urea.
I don't know what the deal with this place is. Is there a actual ban? The stores don't stock them?
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it would seem that by addin fuming sulfuric acid (and this is just theory as i have tried neither the reaction listed nor with the changed ingrediants) to the reaction would remove the water and by changing from a open burner you will probly want an oil bath to more carefully control the tempratire. checking an industreal msds info for nitric acid will give you its boiling point. using a fractationa distilation should yeild in the neighborhood of pire nitric acid.
Now for the recent restrictions on nitric acid its self comes from tje dumb people who A go nuts and try to blow something up or they mix up a batch and blow themselvs up.
and as for google repprting stuff the warents were issued because there was evidence on a seized computer and the warent was used to see if the browsing history had been tamperd with aand if so what sights he went to.
as for the availability in the us your best bet is a pool suplie store they will have nitric acid weather dilute or not it can be refined easily. (its used as a ph adjuster but can be purcased in fairly large quanities with no real suspision als dairy supplie stores will have both sulfuric and i belive nitric acid but it may be strictly monitored. pool chem suppliers are where i get my nitric acid from with no adverse friends mailing me or knocking on my door.