Chemical Forums
Specialty Chemistry Forums => Citizen Chemist => Topic started by: zemkacz on June 11, 2007, 10:59:50 PM
-
I know that thermite could be made from iron oxide and allumaninum. I already have some amounts of iron oxide from bleach and vinger with iron nails, i scrape of rust from the nails and filter the rust from the liquid using a coffe filter. This is a very slow process and i do not have alot of $$.
(i am a 14 year old kid) I also herd that this prodices chlorine which is ddeadly. is there any safer or quicker method?
I know that sodium chloride(salt)can be seperated using electrosis, but i have no clue how i would keep the salt above 800c for a long time since electrosis is slow, and i also herd that thiss to produces toxic gasses, i need sodium to show others that alki are actually reactive with water( they are idiots)
-
Iron and vinegar will not produce chlorine. There is no chlorine involved. Making iron oxide takes a long time. Thermite can be quite dangerous, and I wouldn't advise having it drop into anything (like in the video link below). Sodium electroylsis is really an industrial process. It would be difficult to do at home at best, and impossible at worst.
If you want to see the sodium and water reaction, go to your local high school and ask the science teacher to do it for you. Sodium and water can be somewhat unpredictable and dangerous to the uninitiated. If you just want to see it, here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjtiQmoT8o8&mode=related&search=
And this is an outstanding thermite experiment:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7231843493488769585&q=thermite
Unfortunately, they're not wearing safety glasses. They used about 100 times the amount of thermite than liquid nitrogen, so comparing the two is silly. Although destroying the car was cool.
Sadly, the alkali metal video from the same show was a fraud:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2134266654801392897&q=alkali+metals
The first time I saw it, I thought that it looked boosted, but I have never seen Rb or Cs up close and personal, so I gave it the benefit of the doubt. Then I read somewhere that they did indeed add explosives to make it look better. Sad.
I will also speak for the forums here: don't try these at home. They are dangerous. Go to a high school, or better yet, college chemistry class that does demos and watch it there. They have the resources to do these experiments safely. They are no less 'cool' than if you do them yourself. Seeing them live is neat, but doing it safely is concern #1. You may be able to help out or get a job at a nearby college or university in the demo room or the equivalent during the summer if you work hard. That is rewarding in and of itself, and you'll be able to do these experiments for others.
-
i did see the reactions on braniac youtube, and i am fully aware of the dangers of this, and also they couldnt get francium since its radiactive, plus im not intersted in fracium or ceasium since its too dangerous and reactice to keep in a plastic container in the frig or someting since my parents would be like what is this and they open it on a hot humid summer day and lose thier hand or arm o something, just wanna show some ppl that alki are reactice with water, and also thermite since, well, i wanna aactually se it up close (not THAT close)
and i forgot to metion erlier, also i wanna build a netran "gun" i already have some americinum (yes i know its radiative and i wear a particle filter when handaling it since the particles are deadlty when u unhae them) i got them from smoke detectors
and i dont think that my high school would let me work with nuclear stuff like americinum-24something(yes i know it realeses mostly alpha radiation which does not go tru skin but better be safe then sorry, i also store it in a bottle of water so none of the particles would bcome airborn
-
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3825610222960975525&q=sodium+lake&hl=en
-
i also got suspended for makeing smokebombs in 8th grade, now going to high school but they got infromation about my suspension(i used gunpowder and suger, i got the gunpwoder from firecrackers) and they prbably know that also since my like 96 average in chemistry, they probably wont lett me go anywhere near and materials that could be used in the wrong way, so now i need to do this at my backyard, or in a desolate location
-
See, that's exactly why you need to play by the rules. Talk to your teacher, tell him/her your sincere interests, and ask if you can help out with making demos and/or lab work under supervision. That will help build their trust in you so that they will be more likely to let you do awesome experiments in the future. Our AP Chem teacher was very trusting of us, and she helped us to make several things, one of which was thermite. We set it off out on the football field, wearing appropriate safety gear, etc., and it was great. If we had done it behind her back, we may have been facing legal problems to say nothing of what would have happened to us at school.
It depends on why you're interested in doing these things. If you're interested because you really enjoy the chemistry of it, then great, pursue it through legal channels. If you're just interested in making a boom or because these things like the americium is on the 'fringe' (shady or questionable legality), then you should reevaluate why you're into these things. That kind of a life doesn't lead anywhere good, and especially in this terrorist-fearing world we live in now, you can get nailed harshly for something that really wasn't that bad.
-
ok ppl. listen, i am here only for the chemistry, i got scholerships to 3 catholic schools and and going the a very advanced high school, i am NOT here to just make boom, i wanna actually learn, and i just find this interesting because well, i dont know, the things that you could do in chemistry and physics anre amazing, like those people who built a fusion, not fisssion reacto.
Also the school that i go to is catholic, therfore a scince lab for them is a bunch of ceap microscopes that use a mirror insted of a light bulb, and is very behind in technology(we still use windows 98), and lastly, the school that i am going to is pretty new, but is gonna take some time to actually gain there trust, especially with my previous suspenison,(the idiot that i gave the smoke bomb too lit it up in his house, right after i told him that it produces alot of smoke and is pretty dangerous and should be lit outised, and the gases u should not inhale)
-
I know it sounds like everyone here is overly cautious, but it's a must.
Your best bet is to convince one of your chemistry teachers to help you start a chemistry club.
General safety precautions to take (or at least the ones I can think off the top of my head):
SMALL amounts of chemicals (mg and mL amounts), especially if it's your first time doing an experiment
Good ventilation
Eye protection
When working with acids or bases make sure you can neutralize them quickly
Fire suppressant capabilities
Latex gloves are helpful for most situations in my opinion.
An apron some type of clothing that can handle chemical spills is a good idea.
If you absolutely must do the thermite reaction use small amounts. By small I mean on the order of a gram or 2 tops. Take all safety precautions. Good ventilation/outside is must.
Alkali metals aren't easy to make at home because they are so reactive. Electrolysis of salt just isn't feasible in the home setting.
If you every were to get a hold of sodium, use small amounts. Small as in a few milligrams.
Also a word of advice, in chemistry lab at school, the chemicals you use will seam relatively benign, but just because you used it in school, doesn't mean it's safe. I've used sulfuric acid many times in school, even got it on my hand. It didn't hurt at all because we use such low concentrations. At my house though, I have 98% sulfuric acid, now that stuff is dangerous. It will cause painful chemical burns.
P.S.
allumaninum.
That is the most interesting spelling of aluminum I've every seen. ;)
-
Yes, we are all very concerned about safety here. We're also dubious of anyone asking about thermite and sodium. Why? Because there are a significant percentage of kids out there with nothing but destruction on their minds. We don't want to see anyone get hurt, much less get hurt because of something they read here. We also don't want to be held liable (slim though the chance may be) for anything on this site.
It's good to hear that you're interested in the chemistry behind the reactions. I bet that many of us were drawn into chemisry through the interesting reactions that released heat, light, or both, and perhaps induced fire or an explosion. You need only look at my avatar to wonder what parts of chemistry interest me. Do yourself a big favor and read, read, read -- books, not crap on the internet. I managed to find several chem books, chemical magic books, pyrotechnic books and others when I was in high school that I found very informative and useful. The more knowledge you have, the safer you will be. And seriously, who wants to get burned by thermite? If you're ignorant of what it can do, you will eventually get hurt by it. That's a general lesson of life.
Anyway, I'm rambling on. I'm sorry to hear that your HS is a little under-funded when it comes to chemistry. You may consider going to the public HS in the area and seeing if you can get a summer job as a lab tech. I don't know how big your public HS is, but if it's large enough many times they need a summer student to help prepare solutions, etc. Constant thinker also has a good idea in getting a teacher to help you form a chemistry club. One of the things that I really enjoyed doing in HS was putting on chemistry demos for elementary and middle school students. We'd freeze things in liquid nitrogen, spray metal ions into a flame to color it, show students permanganate and glycerin lighting on fire, and lighting off hydrogen balloons. That is rewarding in itself, whether or not you do the thermite reaction.
Sadly, what was once considered 'kids being kids' is now considered 'terrorist activity'. In addition, we've got the idea that everything needs to be 100% 'safe' and foam-padded. While I agree, we've come a long way on safety in the last 50 years, and there were a lot of stupid risks that used to be taken, we've taken it overboard in some cases. For instance, safety glasses are an excellent example of something that is good. They are low cost, and high benefit, even for low-risk operations. They don't detract from anything, but the chances of them saving your eyesight are excellent. Now, on the other hand, the fact that most chemistry sets don't come with anything more exciting than baking soda now is idiotic. The risk of kids getting hurt from say, sodium hydroxide, is worth the experimentation that they get out of the chemistry set. The injuries from NaOH are going to be limited, if they occur at all. That is a low-risk, high benefit, low consequence reward to do the experiment. At the same time, I can understand if they don't want to include sodium cyanide in a set. That is a high-rist, low benefit, high consequence inclusion. The experiments that can be done with cyanide are not worth the risk of kids poisoning themselves with it.
As for thermite, you really need some decent quality aluminum, probably commercial grade. I was sadly dissapointed when I had filed down several aluminum nails to dust, mixed with reagent grade iron oxide and then tried to ignite with the magnesium mix recommended. Didn't do anything. Why? Probably because the aluminum was too big. You really need about 200 micron or smaller to get some good ignition. There's also many different grades of aluminum, some of which are more reactive (like flake) and more likely to make things go kablooie than burn, and there's less reactive like atomized, which are more likely to burn. Good luck finding a source outside of school for this.
-
Now, on the other hand, the fact that most chemistry sets don't come with anything more exciting than baking soda now is idiotic. The risk of kids getting hurt from say, sodium hydroxide, is worth the experimentation that they get out of the chemistry set. The injuries from NaOH are going to be limited, if they occur at all. That is a low-risk, high benefit, low consequence reward to do the experiment.
Sodium hydroxide omitted from chemistry sets! :o
That is really idiotic, they could just pre-prepare very low concentration solutions that harmless to the skin or just a minor irritant. A young kid most likely will not need to work with concentrated sodium hydroxide.
Sorry I diverged.
You always need to respect chemicals, at all concentrations and all amounts. It's a good habit. The reading from books like hmx suggested is a very good idea. Go to your local library, you may be able to find something.
P.S. I find concentrated strong bases to be more painful than concentrated strong acids. You don't feel the base right away, it takes quite a few seconds, but when you do start feeling it, it is ITCHY and burns. With the acid, at least you feel it quickly, and can neutralize it.
-
I highly suggest somebody like you read the following book.
http://www.amazon.com/Caveman-Chemistry-Projects-Creation-Production/dp/1581125666/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-1017974-8169564?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181851885&sr=8-1
Caveman Chemistry.
It is a great book, enjoyable read, and teaches you lots of stuff. From making your own FireWorks (boom!) safely to making your own sulfuric acid or sodium hydroxide and all kinds of other great stuff.
Caveman Chemistry companion website, plus more info:
http://www.cavemanchemistry.com/
-
i dont think that fireworks and safly should be together in the same sentace, i bought a couple in florida and they can be unpradictibal when u light them, especially when they once started to fly when one of the raports blew and sent the bottle rocked flying towords me, lucakily it missed ad flew into the lake
(it was 4th of july)
-
also, i went to the library and asked for chemistry books and all they had was chemisty for little kids like tips on how to handle acid, and why a lemon is sour, stuff like that.
anybody knows where i could find books on alki metals and also radioactive reaserch, like tabletop fusion??
and yes i just bought that book of amazon that the person suggesetd for me, also i read the radioactive boy scout which is also a great book!!
-
i dont think that fireworks and safly should be together in the same sentace
Water if by far the most dangerous chemical and substance on the planet. More people die from water related deaths each year then any other. There is a difference in being safe and cautious and not doing anything. Emphasizing safety, as everybody here is doing, is very important, especially to someone who does not have much experience. Sure it might seem annoying to you, but sometimes it is better to learn from other people then make mistakes and injure your self for the rest of your life.
The most important safety tips, 1, think about what you are doing. And if something seems/feels unsafe to you, after all the precautions you have taken, just do not do it.
-
Fireworks and safely absolutely belong in the same sentence. Most fireworks are quite safe, and regardless, you need to think about safety when using fireworks. Many accidents are due to user error, like anything else. Yes, I am defending fireworks. It is what I love, so deal. Unfortunately, there are some really poorly made fireworks that shouldn't be on the market due to their poor manufacture. The CPSC is responsible for policing these, and usually does a poor job. Instead, they go after raw chemicals and hobbyists who are creating no problems on the market. I would definitely say that the sodium + water reaction is more dangerous and less predictable than fireworks, especially DOT Class C fireworks. All that being said, that is not to say that fireworks aren't dangerous--they can be, just as most things in life can.
In any case, take a read through some books on amazon. Get a copy of a college general chemistry book, e.g., Zumdahl's Principles of Chemistry. It covers all of chemistry at a basic level, including alkali metals. There aren't many books written on alkali metals, mostly because their chemistry isn't as diverse (some say 'interesting') as other metals.
-
If you're interested in alkali metals, especially sodium, check out Theodore Gray's website.
Here is a link right to an article he has on his experience with sodium, and it has videos too.
http://theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Stories/011.2/index.html
-
I agree with the other posters.. to play with thermite...is out of the question ..especially since you said you are 14 meaning this is most likely your first chemistry course..and if you want to play with sodium you probably need a few more years lab experience...ive had a home made peice of potassium metal smaller then the tip of my pinky explode when placed in a small container of water..granted it wasnt a large explosion but a shard could have easily gotten in my eye.
actually interestingly enough that happened in my highschool when i was showing off a peice of k metal that i had made to my biology teacher...unfortunately she was talking to some lady at the time ...the lady turned out to be the dean of science... to say the least the dean of science was freaked out that someone had brought potassium to school and it did not look good for the teacher... luckly no one got in trouble.. but that is a prime example of what not to DO ...dont be stupid like me!
making thermite and alkali metals at home is very dangerous...