Chemical Forums
General Forums => Generic Discussion => Topic started by: billnotgatez on March 18, 2008, 05:35:56 PM
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NPR had on the news that bio-fuels are still more expensive than regular, even with the price gouging going on by oil producers. They also talked about a study that showed the current method of bio-fuel production is not very green. I was such a fan of growing fuel and now I am disenchanted.
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I know just who the ask ... no, not Al Gore ... all of your points were covered in a microcosm here: how green the procedure is, incidental production costs (cash and environmental), costs of infrastructure scale-up for a new technology: http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=21968.msg83936#msg83936
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even with the price gouging going on by oil producers.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23662031/
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The current method of production of biofuels is currently is not very green and produces fuel at a cost higher than gasoline. However, technologies may improve such that biofuels may become more economically and environmentally friendly.
In the case of ethanol, ethanol is currently produced from corn. Corn is a fairly energy intensive crop (for example, requiring much fertilizer to grow) causing problems both on the economic (high cost of raw material) and environmental (water pollution) sides of the problem. Researchers, however, are investigating cellulosic ethanol technologies which will convert cellulose (either from agricultural waste or non-food crops) into ethanol. Assuming researchers can develop a cost-effective means of converting cellulose into ethanol, this promises to be a more economically and environmentally friendly means of ethanol production. These technologies, however, are at least 10 years away.
So, while ethanol (I haven't looked much into the other biofuels) currently is not a viable solution, the field still offers some promise.
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Been looking around the web for articles relating to bio-fuels and stumbled across this:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080423115917.htm
As i'm not the greatest of chemists ( i suck at this subject actually )
I wondered what you lot make of it?
and on a totally different note:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvB3PiPBozU
I'm sure Mythbusters did a small scale test and found this technology failed, but as it's physics not sure how much of a reply i'll get.
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there is still hope,one of the faculties in the philippines are trying to produce bio-fuel using yeast (S.cereversiae) and a lot more of these researcj is ongoing using different eco-friendly and economic wise methods...
cheers
-artificial student
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I happen to be a fan of bio-fuels but
There has been recent discussion that bio-mass to fuel production has increased the cost of food which is causing higher rates of starvation in the world.
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I happen to be a fan of bio-fuels but
There has been recent discussion that bio-mass to fuel production has increased the cost of food which is causing higher rates of starvation in the world.
I have read that in the New Scientist Paper,
Hence why scientists are now looking into cyanobacterium as a future source of fuel, as described in the link in my above post.
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I happen to be a fan of bio-fuels but
There has been recent discussion that bio-mass to fuel production has increased the cost of food which is causing higher rates of starvation in the world.
I have read that in the New Scientist Paper,
Hence why scientists are now looking into cyanobacterium as a future source of fuel, as described in the link in my above post.
yes,cyanobacterium and even clhorophyta algae are now undergoing in a research
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There is some indication that agriculture of the oceans is having a polluting effect as well as run off from land agriculture.
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i help in the ulva research once they are considered as bio-indicators, meaning if the seawater is full of nitrogen and phosphorous they thrive very well so i dont think that farming them is necessary....
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What major does one declare if pursuing a career in Bio-fuels?
Organic Chemistry?
Biochemistry?
Envrionmental Chemistry?
Chemical & Petroleum Engineering?
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What major does one declare if pursuing a career in Bio-fuels?
Organic Chemistry?
Biochemistry?
Envrionmental Chemistry?
Chemical & Petroleum Engineering?
a combination of all,in fact my research head is a collaboration of the biochemical engineering dept.,environmental eng. dept. and the marine biology dept.
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Overall,I think that ethanol from corn is a joke.It grows too slow and is not very efficient at photosynthesis.It's been basically a big scam and a fiasco.Same with soybeans.A few big swindlers will get rich off the government,taxpayers,and you and I...while driving up food prices and ruining the environment.
If you really want to get serious(instead of ludicrous),industrial hemp and algae are the best ways to go about it.But the DEA(Drug Enforcement Administration)makes a big fuss about hemp and makes a mountain out of a molehill.Most of their arguements are silly and don't hold up to the real facts.There's simply not enough of the psychoactive THC ingredient in industrial hemp to get anybody high.I wonder if it's still because of big oil business politics controlling the government(so much for being brainwashed about how we still live in a democracy that is not run by a few wealthy elites).I for myself can't comprehend why oil companies would be against it.In fact,why can't they diversify their businesses into agriculture and grow hemp themselves?As time goes by,renewable hemp will be more economic and profitable to produce than non-renewable oil as they have to invest more money to extract the remaining difficult stuff from shale,tar sands,and etc.
However,that is not to say that existing ethanol plants can't eventually evolve into something better as time goes by.For example,ethanol plants could eventually be modified for butanol,which in many respects is a better alcohol fuel.And instead of low productivity corn and sugar beets,why not cellulosic butanol from industrial hemp by somehow modifying existing ethanol plants?
Hemp and also fast-growing algae shoud take far less landspace,harm the environment less,and not compete with food production to feed a hungry world population.I think this is the best route to eventually be taken for biofuels.
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Biofuel is MUCH cheaper to make than regular petrol. On the order of <$1/gallon!
NPR is plain wrong. See http://www.BioFuelDebate.com (http:// www.BioFuelDebate.com) for REAL facts from people that make biofuel / biodiesel.
-J
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I have read some of the things on the forum you posted a link to and the people on there are very naive about the world.
Current biofuels are not the solution to all our problems.
In fact they cause different problems such food price rises and deforestation. Also they are not carbon neutral yet either.
We need to look at the big picture, making biodiesel from waste vegetable oil is better than throwing it away but growing crops to make vegetable oil and converting it into fuel is less efficient than extracting fossil fuels in terms of cost and carbon dioxide emissions. As oil reserves shrink this may change.
We need to get much higher conversions of plant matter to fuel using low quality land, low/no extra water usage, low/no pesticide usage and low/no fertiliser usage to make it worthwhile. That needs cellulosic derived fuels from some kind of grass.
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The answer is making renewable diesel fuel from municipal solid waste.
We just need more diesel vehicles now especially small fuel efficient ones.
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I have read some of the things on the forum you posted a link to and the people on there are very naive about the world.
Current biofuels are not the solution to all our problems.
In fact they cause different problems such food price rises and deforestation. Also they are not carbon neutral yet either.
We need to look at the big picture, making biodiesel from waste vegetable oil is better than throwing it away but growing crops to make vegetable oil and converting it into fuel is less efficient than extracting fossil fuels in terms of cost and carbon dioxide emissions. As oil reserves shrink this may change.
We need to get much higher conversions of plant matter to fuel using low quality land, low/no extra water usage, low/no pesticide usage and low/no fertiliser usage to make it worthwhile. That needs cellulosic derived fuels from some kind of grass.
We probably are naive about the world :-[
Anyways just quoting you where you sayind that biofuels are not carbon neutral at all- How can this be? Would they not be more 'almost' carbon neutral than fossil fuels. Also during my travel to asia, I noticed huge rapeseed plants fields . And definitely saw more scope + empty land area available for such type of large scale productions. Especially for countries such as Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, other south Asian countries where land and climate permits and encourages this type of agriculture- would this not be a good impetus for employment- Considering one or more of the above countries rely heavily on agriculture field for employment?
Maybe I am naive and probably just don't know enough about this, but when the first oil well was drilled in Titusville Pennsylvania in 1859, some one probably said that we are too naive to think of petroleum as one of our primary fuel soources and no way in hell would humans be capable f consuming 3.1 x 10^10 barells of petroleum yearly.
heheh and the bolded bit - yeah we probably are too naive but in upcoming years, I guess beggars wont be able to be choosers.
Well feel free to bash me.. Im just hear to learn :D