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Specialty Chemistry Forums => Chemical Education and Careers => Topic started by: Astrokel on July 23, 2009, 09:34:32 AM

Title: Importance of English
Post by: Astrokel on July 23, 2009, 09:34:32 AM
Can i ask how important is English to Chemistry? How would you rate on a scale of 1(not important)-10(very important)? I believe it is unfair to reject someone in pursue of interest in chemistry just based on his grade in English.
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: Dan on July 23, 2009, 10:56:20 AM
If you're in an English speaking country and working with English speaking chemists it's important. As a native speaker I can't really grade it from 1 to 10, but I've worked with alot of non-native-English-speakers - from fluent speakers to the less accomplished, where a bit of mime is sometimes involved. It doesn't really matter how good the English is, as long as communication is possible. The dangerous thing is when accidents happen because people do not understand safety procedures or what is being asked of them due to a language barrier, which I know has led to one serious explosion in the building I work in. I think it is entirely fair to reject someone if they cannot speak the working language of the institution - but total fluency is not required. I certainly wouldn't think it was unfair if I applied for a post doc in France and got rejected on account of my horrible, horrible French.
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: DrCMS on July 23, 2009, 11:49:08 AM
English is and will continue to be the language of business and science.  If you can not speak and read/write english you will struggle in this world.  That make life easy for me as an English man but it is a truth none the less.
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: Astrokel on July 23, 2009, 11:55:51 AM
Let's say there are two students. One student scored an A in chemistry but barely passed English while the other got B or C in chemistry and a better than average grade in English. I presume most of you will choose the latter for a science chemistry degree, eh?
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: nj_bartel on July 23, 2009, 06:18:11 PM
Effective communication is a necessity.  An english class is a dumb measure of being able to use the language (in my opinion).  If you can comprehend (easily and consistently) what you are being told, and if you can explicitly communicate what you desire to convey, then I wouldn't see there being an issue.  I think the only way to discover this information is to hold an interview with the person.

However, yes, if you are unable to do the above, I think it should preclude employment.

That said, there are several asians and europeans that work as either post-docs or grad students at my university, and communicating with them in english isn't always the easiest.  However, in my lab I mostly work with germans, and my PI speaks fluent german, so there is another method of communication for them.  I'm not sure if this is the case in the other labs.

If you're talking about yourself, you seem to have a near mastery of the language, at least on paper.  Is a thick accent what you're concerned about?
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: 408 on July 23, 2009, 09:24:22 PM
You mean English as a second language?  Or the one with Shakespeare?
The former is essential, the latter as long as you pass.

I would only let people in if they could speak the language, how well they regurgitate the views of a hippie english prof about the symbolism of a tree in a poem I could not care less about.

I had a C in first year undergraduate english.  No issues getting into grad school.
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: Astrokel on July 23, 2009, 10:07:45 PM
I am the first student. I have no issue with communicating and writing in English, perhaps more grammatical errors and less fascinating jargon or words. I scored reasonably well in Physics and Mathematics and this should be essential for me to enter Chemistry course. I know that i am not alone because a parent had wrote in to newspaper talking about how her kid lose seat in university(science faculty) to their friends whom scored lousier in science but better in english. I just want to know why they look at grade in English first before chemistry then other subjects? Are they afraid that i can't comprehend the text or doubt my ability to write a science thesis without giving me a chance to try? I admit i wrote out-of-topic in my A level English papers. However, this has little influence on how well my 'knowledge' in English is going to hinder a chemistry degree. The A level topic was on History and i know most people will say i should have do fine as long as i am good in English - the topics does not matters.

I have appealed and got rejected again. I still have 1.5 year before compulsory military life ends so i will just keep trying.
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: JGK on July 24, 2009, 11:31:30 AM
Astrokel,

I agree it seems unfair, I grew up in England and English is my first (only) language yet I failed my O-Level English exams four times (passed on try 5, just before my A-levels). All through my career I've worked on improving my written work and am never far away from my dictionary/grammar textbook.

I think the emphasis on the English competency is that as part of university courses you will probably be expected to discuss/argue points of view as well as give presentations write essays/theses all of which (I assume) must be in English. Consequently, some level of competence is essential.

My personal experience of this was not at university but in the work environment. I worked in an area covered by GLP and regulated by FDA/OECD guidelines where all data recording etc. had to be in English. For many of the staff, English as their second/third language and as a result those of us who were native speakers acted as an extra level of "policing" to maintain record quality, provide additional training etc.
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: Astrokel on July 24, 2009, 01:05:27 PM
I agree with you but i believe there are many better solutions. They could provide additional English lesson for those who did not score better than expection. I believe none will mind even they have to spend extra time or even pay for it. Better solution yet it is not happening? It makes sense to me to recruit those interested and scored well in sciences and to help them improve english than to take in those scored an average in the subject. Overall, it is the core subject that matters and it is not like their English is perfect, just one or two grades higher than passing grade. As for now, I am at lost and re-appealing is not going to help much. My friend suggested that i should get my chemistry teachers to write a reference letter. I still have their contacts and i know they will definitely help me out as they mentioned to me i was their favourite chemistry student. But it will be last resort as i will never want them to know my situation now, rather embarassing and disappointing for me. I hope you do not feel that i am whinging way too much because it just does not feel right for me.  :(
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: DrCMS on July 24, 2009, 02:29:28 PM
Life is not fair.

As i said English is the default language of business and science. 

You can't change that just because it's not fair, you just have to live with it.
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: Astrokel on July 25, 2009, 07:24:36 AM
Ok understood, time for me to step into the real world.
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: DrCMS on July 26, 2009, 04:56:42 PM
As far as I can see your English is fine.  Certainly your written English is better than too many of my fellow countrymen.  What is your spoken English like?  If it's good try phoning the university you want to go to and speak English to them.
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: Astrokel on July 26, 2009, 11:15:19 PM
I have no problem in communicating as i speak English all the time except when i am at home. Honestly, I am not exactly fluent in English but i am certain i can convey my messages and thoughts well in coversations. The problem is that they did not specific the reason for me not being able to enter into Faculty of Science. I found out it was possibly due to my General Paper because a friend of mine got in and he had exactly same grades as me except two grades higher in GP and i scored better in Chemistry. He got in Physics not Chemistry though despite my Physics grade was same as his. My aunt is a lecturer in Physics department told me at that time my result was a pretty sure-in case as they had discussed about it. She told me they only discuss about the core subject grades to enter the course so i am quite puzzled when i did not get in. Then i read on newspaper on the complains by one of the parent for looking at GP first despite being only 10% of university entry while one core subject weights 20%. I don't know if calling them up helps because i am very certain they wouldn't admit it was due to my English and moreover GP was a written paper.
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: nj_bartel on July 27, 2009, 06:31:55 PM
Did they interview?
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: billnotgatez on August 08, 2009, 06:16:06 PM
When I was an undergraduate there were several courses taught by professors who communicated badly in English, but were retained because of there credentials in there field. That was considered fair as well. So in that case we have vice versa. I pitied the poor undergraduate that had to endure that situation.
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: bellatricks on August 24, 2009, 04:18:09 PM
To be realistic, yes English is important, but no it won't stop you from having a successful career in chemistry. I've had plenty of graduate instructors that were impossible to understand that were hired just because there was no one else who could do the job. That alone seems to be a testament to the relative unimportance of English.

And like billnotgatez mentioned, most professors at research universities are hired based on their research and credentials rather than their ability to teach and communicate with their students. So I would say that you should work on your English skills just because its something you should be able to pick up by being immersed in an English speaking environment, but that you shouldn't worry too much about a little clumsy English when it comes to your longterm Chemistry career.

Caveat though: while being able to speak English is one thing, writing it, and being able to clearly form an argument and present your research is crucial. So at minimum, focus on your writing skills.
Title: Re: Importance of English
Post by: Borek on August 24, 2009, 04:32:42 PM
Caveat though: while being able to speak English is one thing, writing it, and being able to clearly form an argument and present your research is crucial. So at minimum, focus on your writing skills.

Writing and speaking are two separate things. You don't want to speak with me ;) even if probably you have no problems learning from my sites.