Chemical Forums
Chemistry Forums for Students => Organic Chemistry Forum => Topic started by: KritikalMass on December 21, 2009, 11:37:23 PM
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Can someone please propose a sythesis for converting water into wine, or of converting water into any sort of alcohol? Thanks :)
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What are you looking for? Doubt anything available does it.
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What are you looking for? Doubt anything available does it.
I am looking to convert water into an alcohol or some other sort of organic molecule.
As you are probably well aware plants, some species of archaea, and some species of bacteria are able to convert inorganic compounds into organic compounds, so was just wondering if it was possible to convert water into an organic compound synthetically.
Thanks!
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There is absolutely no way to turn water into wine, using water as a reagent to generate ethanol should be possible.
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Add sodium ethoxide to your water; this will produce ethanol. Byproduct is sodium hydroxide.
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What are you looking for? Doubt anything available does it.
I am looking to convert water into an alcohol or some other sort of organic molecule.
As you are probably well aware plants, some species of archaea, and some species of bacteria are able to convert inorganic compounds into organic compounds, so was just wondering if it was possible to convert water into an organic compound synthetically.
Thanks!
In addition to what Mitch said, those organisms don't use inorganic matter (as far as I'm aware) to make that ethanol.
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In a way it all depends on whether you classify CO2 as organic or inorganic ;)
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In a way it all depends on whether you classify CO2 as organic or inorganic ;)
I would call it inorganic :P Didn't now ethanol was in that pathway.
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Again, it depends on how you define pathway - obviously almost all organic matter starts as CO2 that gets combined into longer and longer carbon chain molecules.
But for obvious reasons water alone is not enough, you need carbon source, plus some minute amounts of many other elements.
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Short of performing a miracle, I think that this is one of those things that the alchemists of yore have sought to perform for centuries. Much like turning lead into gold.
The one thing that does fall just Angstroms short of a miracle is using a particle accelerator to actually change the atomic structure of water to that of extremely simple methanol. I'd use some deuterium for that maybe. And a couple trillion dollars.
But as for turning water into an alcohol, you'd have to, as previously mentioned, use it as a reagent. Adding sodium ethoxide would form ethanol, or you could run an acid-catalyzed hydrating reaction. And to actually convert the water into wine, you'd have to know how to add all the other molecules that give wine its distinct flavor.
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It is my understanding that plant life converts carbon dioxide and water into sugars which ate converted to carbon dioxide and ethanol by yeast. I assume all this could take place in water.
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As has been pointed out, converting an oxygen atom into a carbon atom (loss of an alpha particle) requires nuclear chemistry. The other nuclear reaction of (6x) deuterium atoms into carbon is just as difficult.
If you are searching for how to convert water to wine, you probably won't find many believers here?
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Oh, sure, like it says distilled or even deionized water anywhere... why not start with fully aerated mineral water, just to make the problem solvable without having to split the atom?
Keep in mind, bacterial contamination should also be a given that is reasonable to assume at any point.
The real hard part, without adding life, is the carbon-carbon bond, honestly. We've only just recently* learned how to split that in a fuel cell in a manner that gives usable energy, and considering the construction of the catalyst it's not likely one in which the energy can be passed back into the system to reverse the reaction in a meaningful way in the first place. Nevertheless, people are working on it**.
* New Catalyst Paves the Path for Ethanol-Powered Fuel Cells (http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/PR_display.asp?prID=898)
**C2-oxygenates synthesis over Rh-based catalysts and in-situ EPR characterization of TiO2 photocatalyst (http://fruit.dicp.ac.cn/fruit%20here/maindoc/dissertation/mahongtao.htm)
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It's a clever question, folks, and I suspect it is allowed to use an organic molecule as a carbon source. I like it.
If I'm right, I would suggest the SN2 hydrolysis of ethyl chloride in alkaline water. (In real life, you would probably need a phase transfer catalyst to make this work well.) I suggest ethyl chloride rather than the more lab-traditional bromide or iodide, because those other halides are more toxic, and what's the point of making ethyl alcohol if it's not drinkable? ;)
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How about using diethyl carbonate, and possibly a trace of acetic or tartaric acid? The hydrolysis should give you carbon dioxide and ethanol - more reactive than the ethyl chloride and the sideproducts are not only non-toxic, but might even give you a nice sparkling wine!
But if you are allowed to use an organic molecule as a carbon source, why not just use ethanol?
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How about using diethyl carbonate, and possibly a trace of acetic or tartaric acid? The hydrolysis should give you carbon dioxide and ethanol - more reactive than the ethyl chloride and the sideproducts are not only non-toxic, but might even give you a nice sparkling wine!
But if you are allowed to use an organic molecule as a carbon source, why not just use ethanol?
Thats actually an excellent idea.. why not have the flavoring agent and ethanol in the vessels themselves, somehow absorbed into the porous portions of a ceramic vessel that was only glazed on the outside, having been absorbed from the previous strong wine in the container. After all, the wine produced was a refill and the container held ethanol earlier in the night.
People at the party were impressed that the "best wine" was being served after a less yummy wine, when it was apparently normal to serve the cheap wine after everyone was drunk. Along the same lines, Wikipedia claims Pope Urban 2 thought that the wine from Champagne was the best in the world (carbonate rock filtered), so considering that champagne is made by some sort of process involving filtering with porous rocks, it stands to reason...
1. That ethanol and good flavors absorbed into the ceramic from the "strong wine", but the nasty tastes were left in solution.
2. Later, the addition of water caused the ethanol and small-molecule flavoring agents to seep back out.
3. Because the "strong wine" was used initially, maybe the filtered, but diluted result was still concentrated enough to be considered wine.
4. If not enough ethanol remains anyways... this could quite likely be popular with the modern interpretations that suggest the use of grape juice as a sacrament anyways, and that the people at the party remained jubilant (normally attributed to Miracle) - those continuing to drink heavily may have only consumed enough ethanol to keep from getting that grumpy feeling drunks get when they start sobering up.
5. Something likely killed or absorbed all the pathogens in the water at the time; there are so many possible ways this could have happened. Maybe the water was boiled the day before. Maybe there was enough ethanol. Maybe something else in there had a bactericidal effect. Either way, if nobody got sick the way people sometimes did at the time from drinking water, it probably made a strong impression.
* There may have even been some less than healthy, but delicious lead acetate introduced into solution from the ceramic glaze as well.
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Although the chemistry to make wine is old, the chemical knowledge is not. It is an allegory. Do not rely upon an ancient myth (unless you believe Prometheus made man out of mud-Greek).
If you wanted to "seep in" the ethanol equivalent to wine, you should use a bottle of absolute. If you know your chemistry, you can calculate how much you would need per liter of wine.
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The traditional method of course is to add a lot of sugar to the water, usually in the form of fruit juice, and a little yeast, and wait until the little critters are finished.
See, it wasn't actually the water that was the miracle, it was the time - if God can create the world in 7 days, surely his son could do a simple fermentation in the time it took to wave his hand...
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The traditional method of course is to add a lot of sugar to the water, usually in the form of fruit juice, and a little yeast, and wait until the little critters are finished.
See, it wasn't actually the water that was the miracle, it was the time - if God can create the world in 7 days, surely his son could do a simple fermentation in the time it took to wave his hand...
Are you arguing that Prometheus made man out of mud according to Greek mythology? You don't think Greek mythology might not have been a myth? (I'm not believing this.)
Or are you arguing the bible erred, the quote was supposed to be Jesus converted fruit juice into wine? Or did you mean that water was of such poor quality that they really couldn't distinguish water from fruit juice?
Really, you don't think this was just an allegory? If it wasn't, then it must have been literally true. Oxygens were converted to carbons? Yeah, right!
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The traditional method of course is to add a lot of sugar to the water, usually in the form of fruit juice, and a little yeast, and wait until the little critters are finished.
See, it wasn't actually the water that was the miracle, it was the time - if God can create the world in 7 days, surely his son could do a simple fermentation in the time it took to wave his hand...
Are you arguing that Prometheus made man out of mud according to Greek mythology? You don't think Greek mythology might not have been a myth? (I'm not believing this.)
Or are you arguing the bible erred, the quote was supposed to be Jesus converted fruit juice into wine? Or did you mean that water was of such poor quality that they really couldn't distinguish water from fruit juice?
Really, you don't think this was just an allegory? If it wasn't, then it must have been literally true. Oxygens were converted to carbons? Yeah, right!
Hmmm, I'm not sure whether you aren't understanding my humor, or I'm not understanding yours...