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General Forums => Generic Discussion => Topic started by: BrokeDown on June 01, 2011, 02:57:53 AM

Title: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: BrokeDown on June 01, 2011, 02:57:53 AM
There's simply no jobs anymore for chemists out there.  Take a look around, most people that call themselves 'chemists' haven't been able to hold on to a job for longer than 5-8 years.  In fact, I bet most of the people you run into in the chemical industry have had 3, 4, or more jobs within the past decade.  How can one ever expect to buy a house or start a family with that kind of job insecurity?  The only thing this worthless degree in chemistry has gotten me are permatemp jobs with no benefits for $18/hr.  I regret every single day of my life wasting time and money on this worthless chemistry degree.  At this rate, it'll only take me the next 25 years between temp job after temp job to payoff all these student loans.  I've done job search after job search and the only jobs out there are for A.)temps and B.) terribly mundane, boring, and low paying QC or method development work.  There's a reason why there are so many listings for quality control/analysis/method development work--it's because people hate doing it and quit not long after starting which forces companies to constantly rehire. 


For all you youngins out there, stay absolutely clear of chemistry and pretty much science in general.  It is a TERRIBLE career.  There's never ending wave after wave of layoffs after companies get done their projects that fail after 5 years, more and more companies have moved to hiring people as low paid permatemps with no benefits, and there is literally no job security.  If you truly love science that much, just be prepared to never be able to own a house or start a family because you will constantly be under the threat of job loss and may have to relocate at any time on a whim.  Have a back up plan--go to trade school, earn an accounting degree in parallel, or work for your state's police dept. etc. etc.  Anything but trying to be a chemist is better.  Believe me, if you try to delve into this crapfest you'll get to know the names like ManPower, Kelly Services, or Aerotek quite well as a permatemp.


Getting a PhD will barely help you out either.  You'll spend years and years slaving away doing worthless post doc after post doc for borderline poverty wages to have almost a slim to none chance at getting an academic position.  A PhD in industry gets you almost no where these days also, you'll simply be "too overqualified" for many positions.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: DrCMS on June 01, 2011, 05:58:10 AM
You seem to me to be a whinging waste of space; no wonder nobody want to give you a job. 

Just having a degree in a subject does not lead to a career you need to work at it. 

I got my chemistry degree in 1991 and my PhD in 1995.  I started my first job the Monday after my PhD viva and I have never been unemployed since.  I started on a temp contract via an employment agency.  I worked hard and showed my commitment and was taken on by the company after ~6 months.  I worked there for another year and then left for a better job.  I stayed in that one for just over 3 years and then moved to my current company nearly 11 years ago.  I own my own home and other than the mortgage (less than 40% of the house value) I have no other debts.

For me a career in chemistry has been good.  I would probably earn more money if i had become an accountant but who wants to do that for a living?
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: enahs on June 02, 2011, 11:08:38 AM
Seeing is how every job statistic agency completely disagrees with you, as well as all of my personal experience and everybody else personal experience I know who are chemist; I would have to say that the problem is you and not everybody else (shocking.....sarcasm).
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: phillyj on June 03, 2011, 03:31:54 PM
For all interested, this is a very recent study that focuses on all 4 year degrees.

http://cew.georgetown.edu/whatsitworth/

For Chem majors, 63% get a grad degree and see 93% in earnings.

And almost all my accountant friends are jobless. If you really want job security, go into healthcare( Nursing, physician asst., etc.). But only some people like that kind of work. I don't so even though I have a useless Biochem degree, I am going to get a degree in Chem. Eng. Engineering is a good field especially for people who like to work in R&D. Actually according to what I read from the Georgetown research, Engineering is probably the best 4-year degree.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Boxxxed on June 10, 2011, 10:25:10 PM
Business is the way to go
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on June 14, 2011, 01:23:17 PM
I have to agree with the OP. I hold an MS in Chemistry. Companies have gone to keeping their science staff as temps or contractors with no benefits and after the agency gets their cut you end up with $15 to $20 an hour no benefits. There are some very specialized jobs out there where they are unable to get away with it that require say 10 years experience formulating epoxy resins or polymer packaging etc. However, there is literally no way into those fields  no degree and noone will hire you without that experience.

I liked science and had an aptitude for it since elementary school.  Now I just hate it and the company and the profession. I could never recommend it and have vowed no one else in my family will study science.

The last ACS stats
http://chemjobber.blogspot.com/2011/03/well-thats-not-good-news.html
 indicated 20% flat out unemployment in fact on 40% of grads are employed full time. Even worse of that 40% 1/2 are working some crap low-paying dead end technologist job in academia. So we can estimate that ~20% of chem grads are gainfully employed. That makes Liberal Arts look good.

Some of the only decent jobs I've seen are with the Federal Govt though competition there is really fierce (~1000 applicants for each job and the fed govt won't be hiring as much with all their debt problems). Teaching is one of the only other options, though it is sad the profession has degenerated to the point where teaching is considered lucrative by comparison.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: enahs on June 14, 2011, 03:01:16 PM
Honestly, these simplified statistics are not very important or very truthful. The VAST majority of Chemistry BS/BA students have no desire to go into Chemistry. They do it to get into med school, pharmacy school, or even vet school. When they get rejected they try and do the MS or the job market. But, if you just get a degree and do not really want to learn the information, it shows in the interview process and nobody wants to hire you.

I had a government analytical chemistry interview out in California last year; that required a MS degree + 2 years of experience at minimum. They said they interviewed over 50 people by phone, I was the next to last person for the interview. They then asked a very simple dilution problem. They said I was the only person that got it right, or was able to do it unless then 2 minutes (it was freaking dividing 10 by 20). They offered me the job. Yes this might be anecdotal, but every job I and friends in Chemistry I know have applied for, have been offered the job. Good paying jobs, lots of offers.


A degree + experience does NOT make you qualified to do anything other then get the job interview. I would not really blame the science or field for schools pumping out way to many unqualified candidates, flooding the market with people that are not actually qualified. Not everybody should get a college degree.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on June 15, 2011, 12:29:04 PM
Of course the vast majority of BS/BA's have no desire to go into chem when companies provide no benefits and pay janitor wages. I believe most chem grads are reasonably competent and can do dilution calculations most even when stressed out in a job interview.  Also the govt must have the most brilliant scientists because the private sector treats them so badly that noone want to work for them.

BTW my experience is most govt and a lot of corporate interviews are touchy feely BS like describe a time when you had a conflict with a coworker..
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: enahs on June 15, 2011, 02:17:31 PM
Of course the vast majority of BS/BA's have no desire to go into chem when companies provide no benefits and pay janitor wages. I believe most chem grads are reasonably competent and can do dilution calculations most even when stressed out in a job interview.  Also the govt must have the most brilliant scientists because the private sector treats them so badly that noone want to work for them.

BTW my experience is most govt and a lot of corporate interviews are touchy feely BS like describe a time when you had a conflict with a coworker..

What can I say. I was the only one out of 49 (technically the 50th person had not interviewed yet) that had a MS degree or higher in Chemistry and could do the dilution problem still. Sure maybe when they were in school they could do it, but they never really learned what it was and just remembered an equation and forgot it after 6 months.


And I am sorry, the vast majority of BS/BAs having no desire to go into Chemistry has nothing to do with the job market. They WANT to be doctors of pharmacists, that simple.

And truthfully, most chemical graduates are NOT reasonably confident. Being on the other side of an interview table now, I can say that with so much confidence.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Jorriss on June 15, 2011, 04:33:04 PM
Enanhs makes a good point that I've been struggling with at school as an undergraduate.

None of my peers like chemistry!!! Out of the ~100 or so in my chemistry class, I've only spoken to 45 or so, and of those, two seem legitimately interested in science at all.

So many people just get a bachelors, make no contacts, nothing and then are surprised they can't get work. Well duh!
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: JGK on June 17, 2011, 04:37:17 PM
For all interested, this is a very recent study that focuses on all 4 year degrees.

http://cew.georgetown.edu/whatsitworth/

For Chem majors, 63% get a grad degree and see 93% in earnings.

And almost all my accountant friends are jobless. If you really want job security, go into healthcare( Nursing, physician asst., etc.). But only some people like that kind of work. I don't so even though I have a useless Biochem degree, I am going to get a degree in Chem. Eng. Engineering is a good field especially for people who like to work in R&D. Actually according to what I read from the Georgetown research, Engineering is probably the best 4-year degree.

I find that quite ironic as, in the UK, the largest employment area for graduate chemists used to be accountancy.

I also have a BSc in Biochemistry (Toxicilogy), but drifted into Analytical Chemistry and did my MSc in Analytical Chemistry and Instrumentation.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: BrokeDown on June 22, 2011, 02:12:26 AM
Organic always graduates the most students by specialty.  Absolutely no one can sit there with a straight face and say that the future outlook for organic chemists here is alright.  It's down right horrible.  All organic chemists should get their resumes translated into Chinese so they can send it to WuXi.  Analytical people probably do fare better, but chemistry flat out stinks for a lot of us.  Nobody believes the ACS data for chemist employment statistics.  They count temp jobs that have no health care benefits, working at Starbucks, or being a lowly underpaid post-doc as being "employed".    You'd have to be insane to try to pursue a career in chemistry here outside of a few very specialized niche fields.  It's a never ending charade of temp jobs w/ no health care, low pay, or jobs that only last 3 or 4 years before you're looking again.  I feel bad for all the grad students that are currently in school that have no idea what awaits for them out here in this wasteland.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Dan on June 22, 2011, 06:26:05 AM
Oh boo hoo. Come on now.

1. What exactly makes you feel entitled to your dream job solely on the basis of having a degree? There will always be competition, when times are tough you need to up your game.

2. Get some perspective. It's not only science that's feeling the squeeze at the moment, and it's not like you're sleeping rough in Mogadishu is it?

3. You think China's chemistry paradise? Move there. Geographical flexibility is exactly the kind of thing you need to be prepared to exercise in a scientific career, even more so if the employment situation in your country a problem. That's life - it is what everyone around the world does. If you're not prepared to pull your finger out and do what it takes then that's your problem.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: rausitis on June 24, 2011, 05:21:05 AM
Chemists degree with proper business mindset won't bring you great job even after decades of "trying".

I started my Chemistry studies just because I did have a business idea in related sector, but haven't clue about chemistry but I had a passion in business and a strong idea.
After I graduated I was done researches I needed so I was able to start a company, of course I was working there alone for a while till I was able to afford more employees.

So I can say that Chemistry is a great thing and good thing to learn if you know what you want to achieve with it!
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Guitarmaniac86 on June 25, 2011, 05:59:26 AM
Wow, reading the OP put a downer on me, thats for sure.

I graduated last year with a BSc in Chemistry and so far all I have done is a three month unpaid internship with a CRO and they didnt take me on. I didnt let that get me down because

1). Its experience and it'll look good on my CV.
2). Im going to do a MSc in Drug Discovery later this year.
3). We're in an economic downturn and it will take a few years for the job market to pick up
4). I dont have a negative outlook on future career prospects.

I look on job sites daily, and even as I do my MSc I will be looking everyday for a job for when I finish, unless I am successful enough to get on a PhD course (BSc 2.2 plus MSc doesn't look likely but Im going to try). The pay for most of the jobs looks very good... So... Your OP confuses me.

The thing is to not be negative. Think positive and be pro active in making yourself stand out from the crowd. I used to think to myself "Life sucks, the job market sucks, I am awesome why wont anyone hire me?" That train of thought led me no where fast. You will stagnate if you keep thinking like that. You need to think and do things that SHOW how awesome you are and have things on your CV that make the employer want to take you on. Just having a degree isnt enough anymore.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on June 28, 2011, 09:32:46 AM
Have you looked at what has happened with pharma over the past few years. I wouldn't get an MS in a pharmaceutical science and count on getting a good job doing discovery research work. That stuff is going to China and India. Pharma is laying off, off shoring, and outsourcing (permatemps) their work.

As I said there are some jobs out there with decent pay but the competition is just too hard to count on. It is like trying to get a handshake from the president in a crowd of 100,000 while being at the back of the crowd. Just saying "boo hoo you need to try harder and compete or you have a bad attitude" is a cheap/worthless blow off by someone unable to counter the valid points made.

Geographic flexibility is a temporary band-aid at best. You can move around for a while averaging 5 years between layoffs. You'd better not buy a house or you will be stuck where you are with no job and unable to sell. Also, your family won't appreciate having less stability than even those in the Military moving from station to station. At least the military guarantees you will have food, shelter, medical care, and a paycheck.

I am heading back for an accounting degree and going the CPA route. I don't see the market for chemists changing anytime in the next decade at least and probably not ever. Also, anyone with the inteligence for a chemistry degree has so many better options than barely eeking by in poverty and long periods of un/under employment.

Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Guitarmaniac86 on June 28, 2011, 12:12:43 PM
Or you know, the actual MSc is diverse enough for me to branch out into either pharma, forensics, analytical chemistry or get into medicine... Chemistry isnt a dead end like you are saying. I know a fair amount of people in the UK who have had sucessful careers as chemists... So... Stop with the negativity...?
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: 408 on June 28, 2011, 02:46:52 PM
I thought I wanted to be a chemist till I watched "lord of war".

Now I am thinking international arms dealer.

Thoughts?

Or a hobo.  that would be cool too.

.


Money is what you make it to be.  I value having a job I enjoy over one I only count down the hours till the end of the day.  I am in grad school doing exactly what I have always wanted to do.  Chemistry was a major financial expenditure before I started grad school, so I find myself with more free cash in grad school....

But as a high paying high powered job to the top, yeah chemistry is a dead end.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on June 28, 2011, 03:57:20 PM
Or you know, the actual MSc is diverse enough for me to branch out into either pharma, forensics, analytical chemistry or get into medicine... Chemistry isnt a dead end like you are saying. I know a fair amount of people in the UK who have had sucessful careers as chemists... So... Stop with the negativity...?
Forensics is very competitive (thanks to CSI also only state govts and some large cities employ) low paying (start $35-45k) and rather boring. It is doing an assembly line of GC/MS for narcotics or DNA testing exactly as the established protocols call for and filling out the hordes of paperwork with no errors because so much as a missing date will cause the evidence to get tossed and the rapist to go free. 

Analytical Chem most of the jobs also consist of doing endless HPLC or GC/MS using the same method over and over again for $15 to $20 temp no benefits. Also once employers see analytical chemist they think mindless automaton and won't consider you for any other sort of job. I've been fighting this the whole year dealing with jerk-off employers who bring you to an interview and tell you well we do research that isn't all by the book and an analytical lab rat can't possibly.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: PsiXPsi on July 12, 2011, 10:49:38 PM
Sorry, my friend who just got PhD in Organic Synthesis is (within 2 months of graduating) working at Intel, working on the Sandy Bridge i7's and making $98k + benefits a year.  I refuse to accept that chemistry leads to unemployment.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: BluePill on July 13, 2011, 02:15:30 AM
I beg to disagree that there isn't enough jobs for chemistry students. Companies choose people who could deliver. Maybe your CV doesn't look promising or you slacked off during college. Even as a BSc, I have received a lot of job offers from large companies. I turned it down because I want to pursue a higher degree. My classmates all had jobs after graduation. Of course, you have to start at the bottom and make your way up. That's life.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on July 13, 2011, 09:56:54 AM
http://chemjobber.blogspot.com/2011/03/well-thats-not-good-news.html

The stats speak for themselves. Less than 40% of grads are full time employed and half of them are working a dead end techie job at the local university (even with an MS).

I get tons of calls too but from temp agencies wanting me to work for $15 an hour without benefits. I can do better in fast food management. At least they get benefits. As far as companies are concerned chemists are toilet paper. Use them for the dirty work then toss them away.

This isn't a case of starting at the bottom entry level. If you end up running samples no company will ever consider you for decent formulations or product development jobs. In fact the longer you stay at such a job the less likely you are to ever advance. 

My advice to the rest of my family and to people in general is to stay as far away from science careers as possible and leave that to exploited third worlders.  That is where the field is headed anyways.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: 408 on July 13, 2011, 05:08:57 PM
If there is 1000s in the competition then get your s#*$ in order to come out on top.

post edit... really?  swear filtering  ::)
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: billnotgatez on July 13, 2011, 11:56:52 PM
we been doing the swear filtering for some time
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: DrCMS on July 14, 2011, 04:21:37 AM
All I can hear is

"I've got a degree in chemistry but I haven't walked straight out of university into my dream job so chemistry is a crap subject"

"poor me, life is hard work and I don't like it"

"it must be the fault of chemistry because I'm perfect in every way"

The real world is tough and only those who are willing to put the effort in succeed.  It has always been like that but way too many young people these days have a sense of entitlement and an expectation that they will succeed just because they want to not because they work hard and have some talent.

Grow up and get real or sod off and stop whinging about it here. 
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on July 14, 2011, 11:06:35 AM
Is that really all you guys have to counter with is cheap blow offs and a derogatory attitude?

Who in their right mind would spend $20k+ on a difficult and time consuming course of study and get a graduate degree even when you have a 20% or less chance of even mediocre employment when you are done. People who are intelligent enough to survive quantum mechanics and organic chemistry have so many better options for making a living and American Companies that cry for scientists and offer them janitor wages are a disgrace. 

I say Americans should just give the finger to the people crying for more scientists and stay out of the field until our society gets its priorities straight.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: enahs on July 14, 2011, 11:19:40 AM
Is that really all you guys have to counter with is cheap blow offs and a derogatory attitude?

Who in their right mind would spend $20k+ on a difficult and time consuming course of study and get a graduate degree even when you have a 20% or less chance of even mediocre employment when you are done. People who are intelligent enough to survive quantum mechanics and organic chemistry have so many better options for making a living and American Companies that cry for scientists and offer them janitor wages are a disgrace.  

I say Americans should just give the finger to the people crying for more scientists and stay out of the field until our society gets its priorities straight.

So, what you just said shows us how much information you have, and how bad of a candidate for Chemistry you were.
If you have to pay for graduate school, you are doing it wrong.

The national average for stipends in graduate program in chemistry is right around $20K a year. That is, the school pays the students $20K+ a year to get their graduate degree.

I got paid $18K/year for MS, and $28k/year for PhD. I got paid to get my degrees.


Perhaps you should listen to other people and your own opinions and change fields. Everything you say shows you are not cut out for Chemistry, from knowledge to training to attutide, which is fine, that is not an insult. So change fields, but why ruin something for other people when they like it?

Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on July 14, 2011, 11:22:25 AM
I never said I did pay for my grad degree and that shows how bad your reading comprehension is. However I did pay for undergrad and at most decent universities that is $20k easily.

However, the grad degree is by no means free. There are opportunity costs involved.  $28k per year is on the high end, it could be as low as $10K at some state universities. Instead of languishing in the university for 2 years earning janitor wages for no increase in earnings. Most job positions call for a BS chemist with 2 years experience or an MS for the same pay, get a BS in accounting and start at $40k or go to professional school and make 6 figures even after student loan repayments.

The Ph. D. is no bargain either. There is a huge glut of science Ph. D.'s so most get $35k post-docs for more years of languishing in the university. So you've spent the better part of a decade at the Univ living like a pauper and have poor job prospects to show for it. At this point the median income seems unreachable. It is just astounding to me that anyone would go into science anymore.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: enahs on July 14, 2011, 11:32:06 AM
I never said I did pay for my grad degree and that shows how bad your reading comprehension is. However I did pay for undergrad and at most decent universities that is $20k easily.

You said "Who in their right mind would spend $20k+ on a difficult and time consuming course of study and get a graduate degree"

You said spend $20K+ on graduate degree, it is not about reading comprehension. It is about your lack of communication skills, which is another reason it is hard to get a job.


Degrees != jobs, in ANY field.
Degrees = interviews, that is it. Your knowledge, attitude, persona, communication skills, and unfortunately sometimes even personal appearance is what gets you good jobs. NOT a degree. I am sorry you just do not have what it takes to get a good job in the field of Chemistry. And I am sorry the economy is tuff right now and you are hurting, it sucks.

But if I go right now to Monster.com and look at how many non contract positions that they are seeking good candidates for, well, then the problem is you.

Are you only looking any your immediate area? You chose a field of study, that while very broad, is not done in decent amounts all over. Perhaps you should be willing to move, as well.


Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: enahs on July 14, 2011, 11:37:35 AM
Quote
However, the grad degree is by no means free. There are opportunity costs involved.  $28k per year is on the high end, it could be as low as $10K at some state universities. Instead of languishing in the university for 2 years earning janitor wages for no increase in earnings. Most job positions call for a BS chemist with 2 years experience or an MS for the same pay, get a BS in accounting and start at $40k or go to professional school and make 6 figures even after student loan repayments.

The Ph. D. is no bargain either. There is a huge glut of science Ph. D.'s so most get $35k post-docs for more years of languishing in the university. So you've spent the better part of a decade at the Univ living like a pauper and have poor job prospects to show for it. At this point the median income seems unreachable. It is just astounding to me that anyone would go into science anymore.

This is just not all true.
Yes, 28K is on the high end. But you can not just look at actual hard numbers, they are irrelevant. You have to look at the cost of living of the location.


A lot of jobs do call for BS Chemist, yes, because there is A LOT of work out there that does not need highly qualified people. That is how the world works. We need janitors, they are an important part of society.

But to say a BS or MS in chemistry pays the same, is completely ignorant.

As far as what you said about post-docs, well the average "chemistry" post-doc in the US is $47K a year. Much higher then what you claim, or what you claim for the 40K starting accountant, etc.
If you look at post-doc biochemistry, the average is $63K a year.
Materials science, post-docs, which many chemists are qualified for, average at $66K a year, post-doc.
Polymer Chemist average at $44K a year, post-doc
Analytical Chemist average at $55K a year, post-doc.
Organic Chemist average at $52K a year, post-doc.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on July 14, 2011, 11:50:14 AM
Your right in most cases the MS actually pays less than a BS if you take into account that instead of spending those two years working you are at the university earning far less money.

I can say I have looked at a lot of chem job ads and the majority of them simply count the MS as a BS with 2 years of experience. There are generally no separate jobs categories for BS, MS, and Ph. D chemists. There are mainly two. BS/MS or Ph. D. The number of Ph. D. jobs are significantly lower than the number of MS/BS jobs and the Ph. D. chemists I went to school with found the Ph. D. jobs so glutted with candidates that they considered removing it from their resume to get a job.

Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: DrCMS on July 14, 2011, 12:29:40 PM
Who in their right mind would spend $20k+ on a difficult and time consuming course of study and get a graduate degree even when you have a 20% or less chance of even mediocre employment when you are done.

I dispute the 20% employment figures you throw around but people who want to do a job that they have an interest in will study the subjects they enjoy. 

If you think all that counts in a job is the wage you are a fool.

I guess could earn more money if I had become say an accountant rather than a chemist.  I choose to do chemistry because I liked it and am quite good at it.  I actually found physics easier in school and got higher grades with less effort but did not like it as much as chemistry.  I was at university for ~8 years to get my BSc and then PhD and I enjoyed most of that time.  Probably there were a couple of years in there that were the best of my life.  Good friends, not too much work pressure, little money but no money worries and a care free single life.  Then I hit the real world and had to work very hard in a different more structured way.   I like my job most of the time and it pays me enough to have a good life but I have put years of effort in to get here and I still put it in now.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on July 14, 2011, 01:45:10 PM
I agree that money is not the only factor, but nowadays especially it needs to be on the scale when weighing the pros and cons of a career. 

This is not a case of people getting greedy and whining about not getting 6 figure salaries like CEO's. This is about scientists asking for a living wage, health insurance, sick leave, having a job for more than 5 years at a time, and a middle class income say $50k or so like even most blue-collar workers get. I don't think it is unreasonable for a bright American with a science degree to earn the median income.

Companies have gone to laying off their chemists every 5 years or keeping them as temps with no benefits. Whether or not you like chemistry, you need to have food, clothing, shelter, health insurance and a little bit for other things is also nice. Also, most people aspire to own a home and have a family. Chemistry isn't worth sacrificing all that for most people and it isn't right to have to watch your children suffer. They should not have to go to substandard schools, be denied good medical care, live in dangerous neighborhoods, have to move all over the country every 5 years chasing a new job when you are laid off all because you like science and wanted what you thought would be a rewarding career and companies think it is cute to pay their science staff blue-collar wages.

If that is the choice US companies are giving me then I'll take accounting and learn to like it. I'm afriad all that hard work needed to get a science degree is not worth it in the end.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: enahs on July 14, 2011, 01:56:47 PM
$50,000 median income is for a two househould family.
The median income per individual is ~$26,000 currently.

blue-collar wages are nowhere near $50K a year.

You really need to look up some facts and understand what is what, you are very misinformed about everything.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: khratit on July 17, 2011, 07:35:35 AM
First of all greetings to all members,

I'm a BSc graduate, chemistry. I have a decent job. Nope, not chemistry. Not even science.

I think that posting one's disappointment in the science industry, here, in this forum will definately draw criticism from the more successful (read: still employed) chemists. You know, the ones who've never had a bad day in their career but still puts on a facade of being the tireless chem warrior for the sakes of their egos.

I wonder how someone who hasn't set foot in mogadishu tell someone else how bad it is there. Maybe he can field strip an M16.

I also wonder how someone who did not study to get a better pay check even bother to study at all.

Why not work for free?

Free === interviews === job.

Scientists aren't the most sympathetic people in the world, and in a forum such as this it should be expected that nasty words would be used on the "losers".

I've always found truly sincere people more hire-able. Not just chemists.

@Brokedown

Just fuggedaboutit. It ain't worth all the heartache.



 
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: 408 on July 17, 2011, 09:26:57 AM
$50,000 median income is for a two househould family.
The median income per individual is ~$26,000 currently.



That's it?  it seems really low? 
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on July 18, 2011, 08:48:40 AM
Where I live all municipal workers, Police, Fire, garbage collectors; elevator installers, plumbers, welders, every blue collar profession you can name earn more money and have better benefits than the chemists. Around here chemists work via an agency to shield the company from employer laws, and pay $15 to $20 an hour no benefits, no career development, no raises, eventually you are fired with 1 phone call and no recourse and in some cases unemployment compensation (some companies declare you 1099 even though it is nearly always against the tax code).
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: enahs on July 18, 2011, 12:47:14 PM
And
Where I live all municipal workers, Police, Fire, garbage collectors; elevator installers, plumbers, welders, every blue collar profession you can name earn more money and have better benefits than the chemists. Around here chemists work via an agency to shield the company from employer laws, and pay $15 to $20 an hour no benefits, no career development, no raises, eventually you are fired with 1 phone call and no recourse and in some cases unemployment compensation (some companies declare you 1099 even though it is nearly always against the tax code).

And I know it might seem that way, but what you say is unlikely in many cases.

The median sanitation worker salary is from $9.50-$12.25 an hour. Yes, there are people that have been there a long time and get a lot more; but it is also hard work and LONG hours.
Police officer salary varies widely, but there are MANY places where they are only getting ~$20K a year. Seriously. And it is STRESSFUL and dangerous.
Firefighters do make good money. But they have a very dangerous and risky job. But in reality, 71% of the US firefighters are voluntary. Getting the paid firefighter gig is EXTREMELY competitive, in many places it is more competitive then getting into the most ivy league school you can imagine.

Welders, yes, if they are good, make damn good money. I have previously posted here to other people not sure about chemistry and just want to make good money. But, you have to be a good welder to make good money, and it is not as easy it it seems (I weld, trust me). Otherwise, just your average basic welder also gets $15-$20 an hour.

Real plumbers make good money; but there are very few real plumbers out there. Most that work in the plumbing field are just "technicians" and average from $9-$12.

I know it seems like they get more, and I am sure there are quite a few of those professions were people make more. But the hard truth of the matter is, they do not. If you are getting $20 an hour with a bachelors degree you are making 40+K a year. That is FAR higher then "blue collar" jobs. But the truth is, if you only have a BSc degree in Chemistry, you are only looking at specialized "blue collar" jobs that pay a little more then other people; unless you are lucky, or at a company with room for advancement.


You can keep saying all these false claims, but I am actually looking up these statistics from US labor sites; not just my feeling on what they make, or what I know one guy makes.

If you have a $40K a year job, you are making more money a year then 45% of the population makes with a dual income household!

I am sorry you feel entitled to be making more because you have a degree; but you are not.



Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Doc Oc on July 19, 2011, 02:05:23 PM
This is starting to get personal.  This is a very polarizing issue and there is truth on both sides.  Chemistry as a major is not dead and there are good jobs that are not dead end careers (although those dead end jobs do exist, and yes, there's plenty of them).  On the other hand, it's completely obtuse (and ignorant, in my opinion) to say that people who are unemployed/underemployed got there by not working hard to promote their careers.  The past few years have absolutely laid waste to our field, and that is undeniable.  The fact that people are struggling certainly isn't a measure of their effort (although sometimes it is), nor can blame be assigned to a single metric like that (high unemployment, continued outsourcing, growing glut of Ph.D grads, all are also factors in the tough labor market).

The truth is, life is unfair.  Sometimes you work hard and someone else doesn't, and they get a really great job while you struggle.  At the same time, it doesn't mean that chemistry sucks and no one should do it, there IS opportunity out there for some good jobs.

Rather than continuing this pissing contest, why don't people who have good jobs start relaying their experiences and give advice?  Where can people look to find good opportunities?  How do you go about making sure your application actually gets received rather than going into the online resume black hole?  If you've hired people, how do you like to see the resume/CV organized?
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: xplosive58 on August 03, 2011, 06:19:07 AM
Hello, this is my first post here. I am currently pursuing my BSc and have been very worried from the mixed reports I've been reading about graduating with a bachelors and not being able to find a job.

It is very confusing because depending on the source, I get drastically different answers.  My school's career center and Academic Adviser assured me not to worry, and I've had a doctor tell me that a chemistry degree would over qualify me as medical lab technician, while job listings require tech school (something I could have done in 1-2 years).

I've read many similar stories on the internet as scchoe's that put a BSc in the same category as a philosophy or english degree.

I wish I had a clearer picture of what to expect, because if it really is that bad, I might as well drop out now and deliver pizzas or something.

I would like to comment though on alternative college degrees. Apart from computer science and possibly accounting, there arent many shining degrees out there that immediately guarantee 50k/year job with benefits the rest of your life. I personally cant stand either of those.

I do have a friend who got an internship with an associates degree in Chemistry and got offered a job making 45k/year (which will slowly increase to about 70) and is finishing up his bachelor's now, so I'm putting a lot of effort right now into looking for internships and hoping to go a similar route.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on August 08, 2011, 01:13:40 PM
Of course your academic advisers are telling you not to worry. They have no clue what it is like trying to get a decent job with a science graduate degree let alone just a BS. They don't give a rats anus as long as their classes are filled and they are collecting tuition. All they do is parrot the shortage of scientists nonsense.

Companies hire their science staff as disposable temps for $15 an hour. Also, with just a BS you will be lucky to even get that. This profession is a complete dead end. Most chemists dump the field and go to professional school or some other direction within 5 years rather than put up with the absolute abuse and exploitation companies put their science staff though all the while crying shortage need more H1-B's. You will likely never see $50K and benefits in your short and unfulfilling career as a lab serf.

If you are looking for a viable career switch to business, computer science, engineering, nursing, or go to professional school. A BS in Biology or chemistry has a negative return an investment.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on August 09, 2011, 11:40:05 AM
BTW Chemistry just made number 9 on the list of the 20 most useless degrees.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2011/04/27/20-most-useless-degrees.html
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: billnotgatez on August 09, 2011, 12:55:40 PM
figures never lie but liars often figure

lies, damn lies, statistics

The average human has one breast and one testicle.

------------------------------------
I am one of those BS in biology persons who is doing statistics for a living rather than biology.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Wald_ron on August 09, 2011, 02:59:57 PM
BTW Chemistry just made number 9 on the list of the 20 most useless degrees.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2011/04/27/20-most-useless-degrees.html

lol art history number 13
starting salary :  39400
48,000 awarded degrees

Photography number 14
start 35,100
hahhaahhaha lol

art number 16
start 33500
90k students
:o

this website is a load of black tar at the base of my round bottom.

What are they basing there numbers on? where did they get these statistics?
How are they determining that chemistry is a useless degree?

 Notice how it says Median starting instead of average.
Fishy






Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on August 09, 2011, 04:49:13 PM
according to the site the criteria used are

Data are from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and Payscale:

• Starting and mid-career salary levels, using the profession most associated with the degree.
• The expected change in the total number of jobs from 2008-2018.
• The expected percentage change in available jobs from 2008-2018.

Chemistry expected change in the number of jobs 2008-2018: +2,100 over 10 years
Number of degrees awarded in 1 adademic year 2008-2009:     22,466 new grads

so in 10 years roughly 200,000 chemistry grads are created and only 2100 new jobs for them are created. Even taking into account people that leave the field though career changes or retirements, I can't see jobs being available for more than a small percent of them.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Arkcon on August 09, 2011, 09:49:16 PM
I want to know what the top 20 best degrees are.  It can't include Pre-Law and Pre-Med, those can't be worth much without Law School and Medical School.  If everything on that list isn't worth having a degree for, what's left?  (I was only able to skim the list, the site works wonky for me)  Perhaps the take home message is that no one should expect prime wages and job security with only a Bachelors degree.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: billnotgatez on August 09, 2011, 10:32:06 PM
Wald_ron -

median is typically the better measurement when doing wages /salary

not mean

so says me
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: shango on August 12, 2011, 08:46:23 PM
This is depressing.  Once September comes around I'll start my first classes toward my BS in chem, now I'm starting to regret that decision.  I don't know what else to do.  I've already changed my major once and I think chem is really the only thing I'm interested in. Oh well. If all else fails and I can't find a job, I guess I'll just become a crack dealer  ;D
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Raphael on August 19, 2011, 01:12:26 PM
I am getting  degree in chemistry because I love chemistry not because I think I am going to make a boat load of money. I will probably end pu teaching somewhere getting screwed over in more ways than I can think of, but that's ok, because i love chemistry and I love teaching. If you go to school just to get out and make a bunch of money, then I am sure there are much better and more secure jobs out there that a different degree could get. Will you enjoy what you are doing?

I would rather get pay less and like it than make more and wish I was dead every hour i was at work.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: c03rcion on August 21, 2011, 03:37:08 PM
After reading the initial post from Brokedown and all the responses, the fact of the matter is that some of the points delivered by Brokedown are on the money. I have been searching for work in chemistry since April 2011 and I can attest that the overwhelming number of entry-level jobs in chemistry are through permatemp, contract positions through Kelly Services, Lab Support, Aerotek, and smaller but similar outfits. Of all the positions I applied to and submitted resumes to, only one led to an interview directly with the company and that was with BASF. Every other interview has been through a middle man temp agency and yes, these positions offer no benefits and pay between $14-18 dollars an hour. It is discouraging considering that all the student loans and the rigor associated with a descent undergraduate chemistry program lead to opportunities with monetary compensation comparable to a fork-lift driver.

I have interviewed for positions through temp agencies on several occasions but have not received any offers. I at least feel some measure of accomplishment knowing that I can get interviews even in this economy. Add to the fact that I interviewed with BASF.
But the reality of the situation is that the economy is very hard on job seekers, employers have become too greedy or too worried about their bottom line and have cut HR departments, using temp agencies to hire on contract folks for lower pay and no benefits. Or they have sent jobs to India and China where the work is way cheaper.

I think some of you are a bit disconnected from the realities of hardships faced by job seekers now because some of you have been fortunate and LUCKY enough to keep you well paying jobs with benefits. And that's right I did say you were LUCKY, nothing anyone does on the planet is by virtue of their skills/qualifications alone. A little luck will always be a factor.

 It's easy for some of you to say "Oh you need to try harder" or say "The successful people put in a lot of effort, so put in more effort" but these comments are cop-outs and don't address the real problems.

Do I regret getting a degree in Chemistry? Not really, but sometimes I do regret going to college entirely--especially considering the student loan debt. Like I said at least I have been able to get several interviews and even had one interview last week for a position as a chemical technician but have not heard back from them yet. I read stories on the internet on how some graduates have submitted hundreds of resumes and have only received one interview and no offer.

I think its good to always have a plan B, and no matter what choice you make having excellent communication skills will ALWAYS be an asset. You could be a magnificent chemist and recall everything from your undergraduate classes and bark out IUPAC nomenclature for complex molecules with multiple asymmetric carbons but if you can't convey words or thoughts verbally or on paper your chances of getting an interview are diminished. I attribute my ability to obtain interviews with the fact that I have a natural disposition for verbal abilities, and therefore can make a pretty good resume. My skills and knowledge as a chemist are second to my verbal abilities and I accept that.

So if I never get a job offer for a chemical position, that's fine. Its never bad to have a plan B. My plan B is simple, teach English (hopefully Science) abroad in Asia or an international school. The jobs are plentiful, the pay is pretty good depending on the country, usually housing is free or pretty cheap, and usually there is some airfare reimbursement. I don't want to do this because I am desperate for money, I have a genuine interest in exploring other countries particularly Asia, and want to experience that. Even if I did get a temp/contract position working in chemistry my goal eventually is to go overseas and work.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Raphael on August 27, 2011, 10:55:51 AM
This same thing came up on the Chemed-l in the last few days. here is an interesting reply. I don't know how much truth is in it, but thought people would enjoying reading it.

"Well...nobody is useless in this world. Let's look at the other side of the coin from Royal Society of Chemistry's Chief Executive's letter.

http://www.rsc.org/AboutUs/News/PressReleases/2008/GraduateEmployment.asp

"We must take issue with the table headed 'employment prospects' that you feature today in the story about degrees and jobs prospects.
The table focuses on one just statistic, namely that 34% of chemistry graduates are employed in a graduate job six months after graduating.
What has been omitted, misleadingly, is the key fact that only 7% of chemistry graduates are unemployed.
A glance at the full Good University Guide table reveals that just 14% of chemistry graduates are in non-graduate jobs - 79% are in fully-fledged graduate roles or are studying.

The Royal Society of Chemistry can assure readers that chemistry graduates are, in reality, subject to high demand, not only within fields directly related to chemistry but in professions such as financial services, where their proven skills - not only data analysis and numeracy, but an understanding of the physical world, and providing robust intellectual challenge - are very highly valued and well-rewarded.

Chemistry graduates, over the course of their careers, earn significantly more than those from most other disciplines in the arts, humanities or even biology. This is not consistent with the low starting salary you quote in your table, and we therefore query the sourcing of your information and the basis on which it has been compiled.
We would also add that graduating chemical scientists can now work in fields vital to the future for all of us, addressing climate change, providing energy, securing food and water and developing new technologies in healthcare, communication and security.
Dr Richard Pike
Chief Executive, Royal Society of Chemistry "
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: enahs on August 28, 2011, 09:28:29 AM
After reading the initial post from Brokedown and all the responses, the fact of the matter is that some of the points delivered by Brokedown are on the money. I have been searching for work in chemistry since April 2011 and I can attest that the overwhelming number of entry-level jobs in chemistry are through permatemp, contract positions through Kelly Services, Lab Support, Aerotek, and smaller but similar outfits. Of all the positions I applied to and submitted resumes to, only one led to an interview directly with the company and that was with BASF. Every other interview has been through a middle man temp agency and yes, these positions offer no benefits and pay between $14-18 dollars an hour. It is discouraging considering that all the student loans and the rigor associated with a descent undergraduate chemistry program lead to opportunities with monetary compensation comparable to a fork-lift driver.

I have interviewed for positions through temp agencies on several occasions but have not received any offers. I at least feel some measure of accomplishment knowing that I can get interviews even in this economy. Add to the fact that I interviewed with BASF.
But the reality of the situation is that the economy is very hard on job seekers, employers have become too greedy or too worried about their bottom line and have cut HR departments, using temp agencies to hire on contract folks for lower pay and no benefits. Or they have sent jobs to India and China where the work is way cheaper.

I think some of you are a bit disconnected from the realities of hardships faced by job seekers now because some of you have been fortunate and LUCKY enough to keep you well paying jobs with benefits. And that's right I did say you were LUCKY, nothing anyone does on the planet is by virtue of their skills/qualifications alone. A little luck will always be a factor.

 It's easy for some of you to say "Oh you need to try harder" or say "The successful people put in a lot of effort, so put in more effort" but these comments are cop-outs and don't address the real problems.

Do I regret getting a degree in Chemistry? Not really, but sometimes I do regret going to college entirely--especially considering the student loan debt. Like I said at least I have been able to get several interviews and even had one interview last week for a position as a chemical technician but have not heard back from them yet. I read stories on the internet on how some graduates have submitted hundreds of resumes and have only received one interview and no offer.

I think its good to always have a plan B, and no matter what choice you make having excellent communication skills will ALWAYS be an asset. You could be a magnificent chemist and recall everything from your undergraduate classes and bark out IUPAC nomenclature for complex molecules with multiple asymmetric carbons but if you can't convey words or thoughts verbally or on paper your chances of getting an interview are diminished. I attribute my ability to obtain interviews with the fact that I have a natural disposition for verbal abilities, and therefore can make a pretty good resume. My skills and knowledge as a chemist are second to my verbal abilities and I accept that.

So if I never get a job offer for a chemical position, that's fine. Its never bad to have a plan B. My plan B is simple, teach English (hopefully Science) abroad in Asia or an international school. The jobs are plentiful, the pay is pretty good depending on the country, usually housing is free or pretty cheap, and usually there is some airfare reimbursement. I don't want to do this because I am desperate for money, I have a genuine interest in exploring other countries particularly Asia, and want to experience that. Even if I did get a temp/contract position working in chemistry my goal eventually is to go overseas and work.

Just my two cents.

Firstly, only since April 2011? I have news for everybody in the real world, in all careers it can take YEARS to find a good job you want in your field. That is how it is in ALL careers. Yes, some people are lucky and get great jobs right away; but most do not. Most people from most professions take not so great jobs at first to get experience and some money while they are looking for a real long-term job. To think it is any-other way is naive.

Secondly, while I have been one of the ones saying it is not all bad the whole time; and you talk about going through it, etc. Well, my GF went back and get her BS in Chemistry and graduated last December. She was looking for a job from Jan and finally found a good one this August. She did the temp interview places, yes, and even worked at one for a while for money. I know what you are going through; probably better then you.

But a BS degree does not entitle you to a job, just interviews. The economy is bad. And there are A LOT of jobs that are open to you now with a BS that was not before; but nowhere was it said they were great paying jobs.  They are still far more then the median job salary though. Most people have a sense of over inflation of what they think other people make or what they deserve to make, etc. Especially young people fresh out of college....

Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on September 06, 2011, 01:55:07 PM
This same thing came up on the Chemed-l in the last few days. here is an interesting reply. I don't know how much truth is in it, but thought people would enjoying reading it.

"Well...nobody is useless in this world. Let's look at the other side of the coin from Royal Society of Chemistry's Chief Executive's letter.

http://www.rsc.org/AboutUs/News/PressReleases/2008/GraduateEmployment.asp

"
What has been omitted, misleadingly, is the key fact that only 7% of chemistry graduates are unemployed.


Chemistry graduates, over the course of their careers, earn significantly more than those from most other disciplines in the arts, humanities or even biology. This is not consistent with the low starting salary you quote in your table, and we therefore query the sourcing of your information and the basis on which it has been compiled.
We would also add that graduating chemical scientists can now work in fields vital to the future for all of us, addressing climate change, providing energy, securing food and water and developing new technologies in healthcare, communication and security.
Dr Richard Pike
Chief Executive, Royal Society of Chemistry "

This is the US. I am aware a lot of chem grads in the UK go to accounting but in the US employers generally demand an accounting or finance degree even for crappy book keeper jobs now.

Second sure the chemistry grads working at Walmart, McDonalds, or Starbucks are "employed." That tells you nothing. I know of few nonscience related jobs that would pay a scientist a living wage. Most go back to med or other professional school, teach in High School, or eventually leave the field. I have a friend whose wife has a Chem PhD. and sells real estate and does pretty well. However the Chem PhD and even BSc was not time well spent.

The degree does not guarantee a job but there are many other degrees that offer far better prospects of gainful employment. The result is a chemistry degree is not a great investment compared to them. Comparing a chem degree to sociology or ___ American Studies BA's is not exactly helping the case for chemistry.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: MichaelJ8 on March 01, 2012, 04:41:56 AM
Okay....

I agree with OP.

I have a B.S. in Chem with over 3 years experiences.  Just started an MBA from a local University. Not the most pristine MBA, but it gets me the business background to move into marketing or supervisor position. It makes me more well rounded... this is very important in this market. you need something to make you stand out, make you more valuble, sadly to get the same jobs someone with less experience would have gotten 10 years ago, but this is the market with growing global competition.

Chemistry is a dying profession. I know this even though I am faithfully employed and making about what someone with my education and experience should make. I still have several years before I hit 30, so I guess I lucked out, but with a mediocre GPA I had to have something : A great interview. I'm certain this skill got me the jobs I have gotten, even a 1 year contract at a very hard to get into pharmaceutical fortune 500 company....which paid well and added immensely to my resume. the next place I interviewed basically saw I worked there and pretty much hired me because of that+ good interview.

But the way I see it, there is nothing out there. The jobs are either very specific, like 3 years polymers and epoxy with M.S. etc like other posters have pointed out, or are dead end technician/technologist jobs.

If you go to the federal bureau of labor website, it states... 2008-2018 chemistry will grow +2%, far below the average rate of all professions. Even worse, chemical engineering is at -2% growth All the chemical jobs are going oversee's. although Material science is growing about 10%, so if you do like the sciences and are going for a B.S chem, try to get into a Material science program. Of if your going post grad with a B.S Chem, try for a M.S or PHD in material science. Most of these programs except chemistry undergrads.

there is a lot of proof regarding chemistry being a worthless degree, the jobs aren't there, even the federal government agrees. Not saying there are NO jobs, I got one, but its very fierce and you need something to stand out.

Double major is always good. If you can do a double major, it will open a lot more opportunities. Think chem/math, or chem/business or chem/computer science...

This isn't the same market anymore like it used to be. Engineers(except bioegineers they have hard too) only need a 4 year degree, but I know a lot of engineers who go into M.S engineering management right away to get that business background to be more marketable. Its getting harder for everyone, but chemistry is getting almost to the philosophy/psychology level.. almost.

Anyway this is my two cents.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Caustikola on March 03, 2012, 08:57:11 AM
Life's strange...
What cristiano and messi earn in a week without any degree is more than what many chemists earn in 4 months with uni degrees
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: billnotgatez on March 03, 2012, 11:59:17 AM
There are a lot of kids that say I do not need to study because I am a great basketball player. Only a very few make it to the big time the rest live in near poverty.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: XGen on March 06, 2012, 11:00:03 PM
This seems like a huge whinefest.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: calwv09 on May 08, 2012, 01:03:18 PM
I am sorry to say this but I agree with the OP as well.

I graduated with a BS in chemistry in 09 with a 3.83 GPA.

I had one Job interview with a pharm company and luckily I got it. I make decent money but compared to friends who went into business related fields I make well below them. Its hard seeing them make more money and being more successful than I am when in school they did not work as hard as I did. All had GPA in the low 2's.


The company that I work for just announced that they are adding 3,000 more jobs and building a new R&D lab (which would be awesome except...) in IRELAND. Also they built a new lab in India last year. My lab went from analyzing 550K samples a year in 2010 to 300K this past year. 2012 outlook is even worse. We are way below last years pace while the new lab in India is on pace to 450K this year. The worst part of this is that some of our equipment as been shipped overseas to them and many of their scientist and chemist has been in our lab learning our ways and procedures.

In March we had a year in review meeting where they spoke about our lab's future and the future of the company. In 2010 and 2011 the  company made record profits. (Became top 3 largest generic company in the world). We are building a new 25 million dollar headquarters after only building one nine years ago. They then finished the slide by comparing our lab to the lab in India.

According to the slide it cost our company $34 per sample to be analyzed in our lab but only $11 per sample in India.

No words were said and lights turned on and said thanks for coming. I take this has a warning to us we are not going to have a job in the future.

I am in the process of starting this fall in a MBA program. There is no future in chemistry in the USA anymore and that is sad.

If I could of started over I would of went into something different. I would of went into healthcare (nursing, PA or maybe buisiness related).

I fell in love with chemistry when I was in the 11 grade, and 8 years later it makes me sick thinking about my future  :-\


Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: calwv09 on May 08, 2012, 02:44:10 PM
Edit for above...$34 per subject and $11 per subject not sample.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sdfsfgfdgdfdf on June 26, 2012, 11:12:40 PM
I just ran in to this topic accidentally, searching for chemistry career advice and reading it, gave me a panic attack. I am a student, graduating in chemistry this year, and I was wondering what area of chemistry to go to, but now it just seems to me like there is no point… I feel like all the time in university has been a complete waste of time…

I have a relatively high GPA, and I’m definitely planning on going to graduate school, I just don’t know what area to go in to. I was wondering if anyone here could give me some advice that would help in avoiding this whole jobless, frustrated situation. Is there any area in chemistry, of the many available, that does offer good prospects for employment?

I was considering physical chemistry, but everybody seems to think nobody is hiring physical chemists, and the only available jobs are academic, and there are way too many people that want to get their hands on those jobs (I read on another forum that physical chemists are considered overqualified for chemistry jobs and under qualified for physics jobs and they’re not engineers, so…)… I was also considering organic chemistry, but it turns out the industry’s interest in organic chemists has declined… I was also interested in biochemistry, but everyone is saying that there are too many biochemists, and many more are graduating every year… I have NO interest in polymers, gels, colloids and that sort of surface stuff… I find it absolutely boring… analytical and inorganic chemistry… I don’t like it either, especially not analytical chemistry…

My greatest interest is in molecular structures, reaction mechanisms etc… nonequilibrium thermodynamics, computational chemistry... I generally like maths and physics. I like physical chemistry, I like theoretical work, research... but now I’m starting to think I should drop all that and start thinking more practically… But what options do I have with a degree in chemistry? To which other professions can I turn now? As much as I like science and satisfying my curiosity, most of all I want to make a descent living and have a family… And my boyfriend has a degree in geography and he hasn’t been able to find a single job in the past four years that’s even remotely related to his degree, just some volunteer environment stuff… So I'm guessing its the same with all science degrees.

So, anyway, my question is, what are my options?

And by the way, it seems logical to me that chemists would be needed everywhere in the industry, i don't get it... how can there not be enough good jobs? If the industry isn't hiring chemists, who is being hired in their place to do their jobs?
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Borek on June 27, 2012, 03:14:36 AM
Not that I have a lot to say on the subject, but a lot depends on where do you live and where do you plan to live. There are huge differences between countries and even parts of the countries, so what people from US write doesn't necessarily apply to the place from which you posted.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sdfsfgfdgdfdf on June 27, 2012, 08:37:24 AM
I'm actually ready to live anywhere, where I can find a decent job, anywhere in the US, anywhere in Europe, Australia... I'm prepared to go anywhere where I can get a scholarship, just not in the Asian countries, because I don't speak those languages and I'm skeptic about their economic growth... I just don't know where chemists are in demand... And yes, it applies to my country also. Many American companies have opened labs here, but the main reason is that they can pay engineers and chemists, biologists etc. minimum wage and get away with it, so that's not really an option... They pay chemical engineers and analytical chemists with masters $350 a month, that's like $2-3 an hour, waitresses make the same amount of money... I'm from Macedonia by the way, that's just above Greece... All the industry closed down during the 90s, and now people have no choice, either work for minimum wage or leave... I used to live in the US when I was younger, so I was hoping to go back there, but I'm starting to change my mind now... I just need to find out where in the world the chemical industries are and where money is being invested in research :)
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Jasim on June 27, 2012, 08:40:05 AM
We need chemists!! We are desperate in fact! Medicinal, pharmaceutical, organic synthesis chemists; Analytical chemists; Chemical engineers; Physical chemists. We are desperate for chemists where I am.

If you are into the computers stuff, they need chemists with technical backgrounds to program, control, and troubleshoot instrumentation and robotic synthesis machines. Chemical software engineering is a huge field in need of talent as well, as is chemical informatics.

I'll back what Borek says. Sure it may be bad in some places, but not everywhere. The OP took the wrong approach to the problem. The economy sucks right now, on a global scale. But those with education and training in STEM fields will always have a growing market that constantly needs new talent.

I will say that the largest area in need is for QC and analytical chemists. If you have trouble finding something you want, why not look into one of those areas just to get some job training and experience.

Personally I wanted to go into organic synthesis, but I ended up as an analytical chemist. A couple months ago I was approach with a job offer to do organic synthesis work. I got that offer because of my extensive experience (a whopping 5 years if you are wondering!). I ended up turning it down because I actually really enjoy what I'm doing now.

I agree with the posters that say you may need to look beyond your typical geographical area for a good job. Some areas are just hot for chemists, others not so much. Take a look at job postings in large cities that are home to 3 or 4 big research/science labs. In my own area of the woods in Indianapolis, we have Eli Lilly, Dow Agro Sciences, Purdue University and affiliates, AIT, and Covance. A science recruiter can help you get your footing and a good one will even help with your resume.

Good luck!

EDIT:
and I have full benefits, starting pay was around $20+ with bonuses. Not bad in my opinion, but the cost of living isn't high around here. I'm doing well enough to pay my bills and debts and be the sole income for my family of four.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sdfsfgfdgdfdf on June 27, 2012, 09:22:58 AM
Thanks a lot! This is the first positive thing I've read on the internet in days about chemistry jobs. Actually chemical informatics sounds very interesting. We had two courses on chemical informatics in university, but they were more about molecular modelling, not so much about doing actual programming, but from what I've read so far about the field, it does seem like something that i would like to do. Robotic synthesis sounds really cool :) but I'm guessing it's not the easiest field of study :)

And, about not being picky for jobs, people here have told me the same thing, to just accept whatever offer I can find in order to build up experience. Apparently its better to be doing something than nothing, because the longer you wait, the more you forget what you learned and the less likely it is you'll get a job. And it doesn't look good on a CV...
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: imhan on June 30, 2012, 02:09:07 PM
"but a lot depends on where do you live and where do you plan to live."

Very, very true, Borek. I was lucky enough to start my science career decades ago, when the profession was respected and jobs were plentiful, and I love what I do. But for US grads starting in chem, engineering and other STEM fields today, the prospects are utterly brutal- increasingly for my own students and others I've mentored, emigration from America has become the solution, and from anecdotal evidence among my colleagues, this is increasingly common.

One of the most jolting conversations I've had in the past few years was with an old student, one of my very best in decades of doing this- graduated with top honors, entrepreneurial, thrifty and innovative. But when I asked about the general consensus for career advice among mentors, promising young grads and entrepreneurs lately, I was shocked by the answer: "Learn German or Mandarin, and write a technical paper in it if possible."

I was taken aback by this, but this sort of meme made more and more sense as I researched it. While they may have their own problems, careers in chemistry, engineering and STEM fields overall are better respected in places like Switzerland and Germany (especially), Scandinavia, parts of France and of course throughout East Asia. They have a more long-term outlook there that balances the more immediate demands of markets with a deep cultural appreciation of cultivating knowledge- thus an emphasis and appreciation of basic science- as well as social structures that allow for better career and family stability in a STEM career, even in economic downturns. It's partly the mixed-economy model that everyone cites- capitalist but also community-oriented, with virtually no student loans, much lower-cost and accessible health care and day care, more modest financial demands for marriage and kids (or divorce if it comes to that) and taxes that really aren't higher than in the US given the multi-tier structure we have here- but I think it goes much deeper than that.

It's hard to pin it down, but these countries esp. in Central Europe have a cultural ethic that values hard work, preparation and high achievement, and yet maintain these values in a context that places a much greater premium on science as a tool for long-term societal gains (even if it takes many years to realize them), and on everyone coming together to help boost opportunities for each generation. Hence the growing importance of German as a technical standard, given that this is becoming one of the major opportunity-producing areas again for STEM fields.

For chemists, engineers and recent STEM grads in the USA in general, conversely, the problem goes beyond a short-term (if "from 2007" is still considered short-term) plummeting in the job market- it goes to deeper cultural issues in the US. It's this relentlessly short-term outlook that's encouraged mass outsourcing of the very tech jobs that the society needs to build a future tech and consumer base, lack of a coherent industrial plan, virtual abandoning of the young generation (massive student loans and health care costs plus utter lack of good-paying jobs means a collapsed economy within about 15 years). Not only are jobs scarce, but support for entrepreneurs is harder than ever to come by- if you don't come from a wealthy family to begin with, then capital is crazily tough to come by (and even then much of it is eaten up by health-care costs in a new business), which drastically shrinks our entrepreneurial pool. So even though the economy is improving, for STEM fields at least, the problem in the US has much deeper roots over decades. Add in the general lack of regard for the sciences and intellectual striving, and more holistic aspects of society such as our comparative lack of social cohesion and solidarity- the kind of "we're all in it together" aspect that helps many countries get through these sorts of crises- and the US is increasingly a lousy place to start a STEM career. Central Europe and East Asia are options that anyone with qualifications should consider.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sdfsfgfdgdfdf on June 30, 2012, 09:45:40 PM
What about Canada? I recently read several interesting papers in the journal of physical chemistry and journal of chemical physics from a university in Alberta, so I thought, maybe Canada has more respect for scientific work... They also have all the other social factors that you mentioned about the European countries, as far as I know they have accessible health care and education for everyone and apparently they're nice... I've never been to Canada though, so I don't really know what its like there.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on July 02, 2012, 10:48:09 AM
I see Jasim you are from Indianapolis. I am in Chicago. I actually took a few trips to Indy to interview with Lilly, Covance, and a food company.  There are a few companies out there that are hiring but I think saying that they are desperate for chemists is a major overstatement. Lilly after going through several rounds of layoffs like most of the other big pharma's are replacing the laid off chemists with contractors (AMRI I believe is their shell company provider). Abbott Labs is doing the same thing up here in Chicago. Some of the emails I get from Indian recruiters do sound desperate. We have an urgent need for a Chemist with a graduate degree and experience with cancer drugs and every analytical technique known to science to work for no benefits and no job security for a contract that is up for renewal every 3 months.

The places where there is a fair number of science jobs are Boston, NY/NJ/CT, and CA. Those also happen to be the most expensive areas in the country to live so $40k is not a great offer there it is borderline poverty. Try finding a nonghetto apartment in NYC for less than $1500 a month. Public school teachers out there start at $60k so you might as well do that instead and at least they get summers off and great benefits and tenure.

I finally did end up with a decent job and am looking forward to telling my current permatemp employer to get bent.  It took me nearly 3 years, I fought like crazy, interviewed over 2 dozen times, turned down a fair number of offers that were insultingly unacceptable or were temp and no better than my current job for a job with mediocre pay and benefits. My ultimate goal is to get a job with the federal government as that is the only place I feel I can have a stable and decent paying career with a science degree. Staying in the private sector I am constantly afriad of layoffs and another 3 year job search or permatemp purgatory.



Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Jasim on July 03, 2012, 09:01:50 AM
I see Jasim you are from Indianapolis. I am in Chicago. I actually took a few trips to Indy to interview with Lilly, Covance, and a food company.  There are a few companies out there that are hiring but I think saying that they are desperate for chemists is a major overstatement. Lilly after going through several rounds of layoffs like most of the other big pharma's are replacing the laid off chemists with contractors (AMRI I believe is their shell company provider). Abbott Labs is doing the same thing up here in Chicago. Some of the emails I get from Indian recruiters do sound desperate. We have an urgent need for a Chemist with a graduate degree and experience with cancer drugs and every analytical technique known to science to work for no benefits and no job security for a contract that is up for renewal every 3 months.

I'm sure there may be some situations like that. Temp agencies tend to not be a place to stick around, usually poor benefits, little security, and renewal issues as you described. I work on contract at Lilly, yes Lilly did get rid of many of their own employees, but they have been hiring contractors in droves (it's a LOT cheaper for them). As you point out, many companies are going this route.

The best thing about being a contractor is that I have better job security than a direct employee. I am part of a Eurofins subsidiary. If my contract with Lilly ever goes away (which doesn't at all seem likely at the moment) I can go anywhere in the world with Eurofins, and they have a many positions that need to be filled. My supervisor relocated from Colorado when a contract ended. The company paid for his relocation to Indiana.

And I'll let you all in on another secret, The job may list needing someone with a ton of experience in all kinds of things, but in my area at least they have been taking under-qualified people and spending the money and time to train them. My resume has been incredibly buffed up since joining this company. They also will pay for a portion of my graduate school - don't hear that often anymore. Yes, it's true contractors make a little less than direct employees, but not much less. And the opportunities I have has a contractor are an immense benefit in themselves.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on July 03, 2012, 09:28:37 AM
Well I am done working contracts. I finally got a job after 3 years of trying that doesn't have a pimp agency taking half your pay check. If I wanted half my paycheck taken away I would have fathered some illegitimate children or something.

I intend to keep trying for a job with the federal govt. If that doesn't work out I'll switch fields out of science entirely.  But I am never going to bust my rear working for a parasite agency again.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on July 03, 2012, 11:04:40 AM
Also the conversion of all the jobs to contract/temp/permatemp is not a positive development for the field. It is a further manifestation of how little regard the MBA's running things place on their science staff. They do not even care to directly hire them and offer them benefits, raises, career development and the other things that real professionals get even the useless and vacuous bimbos in HR I've had the pleasure of being interviewed by.  

That desperation is more a cry for really smart suckers; the same as the shortage of scientist crap. Until the conditions and this attitude changes I will continue to steer people away from pursuing science as a career and society will continue to suffer. Unfortunately I have doubts it will ever change at least in a good way.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Kazerdargon on July 27, 2012, 08:44:59 PM
I feel like this post, in it's entirety, is a ploy set on deriving most undergraduates and those thinking about entering the field of chemistry from actually doing so.

The economy is on the low, no surprise there, so wouldn't it be logical for chemists to convince their possible future competition from even trying?

For someone with a degree as advanced of a field as chemistry, one would also have the intuition to know that chemistry is not a field to get into if all you're looking for is money. Clearly this something I believe everyone is told, even in the undergraduate years (at least my class was). This doesn't deter me from my studies. I love science and chemistry.

Not to mention

If you come up with publications and patents under your own name that inherently useful, then the royalties from those should be able to sustain your fanatical grandeur of lifestyle.


Patent Royalties:
the pharmaceutical with pre-clinical testing, 2–3%
with clinical trials, 3–4%
proven drug with US FDA approval, 5–7%
drug with market share, 8–10%

If you have a PhD, you should be used to research and development. As a PhD, you should be used to thinking outside of the box and not so linearly.

Those that sit there and regret going for their major in chemistry. Why did you ever get into chemistry in the first place? It makes no sense at all, for you to sit there and say the thing you wanted to do and dreamed of doing is now you're biggest regret because you're not lining your walls with all the extra gold you inherited from intellectual spoils.

_______________________________________________________________________
The line that separates a genius person from an insane person is measured by their success.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Wald_ron on July 29, 2012, 12:15:15 PM
I'm pleased to see this thread heading in a positive direction
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: 408 on July 30, 2012, 06:25:14 AM


If you come up with publications . then the royalties from those should be able to sustain your fanatical grandeur of lifestyle.



lol.  only for patents...not publications.

And patents only if the uni wants to cover lawyer fees to get those royalties...
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Doc Oc on July 31, 2012, 08:47:01 AM
If you come up with publications and patents under your own name that inherently useful, then the royalties from those should be able to sustain your fanatical grandeur of lifestyle.


Patent Royalties:
the pharmaceutical with pre-clinical testing, 2–3%
with clinical trials, 3–4%
proven drug with US FDA approval, 5–7%
drug with market share, 8–10%

I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your post.  This set of sentences is enough to prove you don't understand how industry works.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: DrCMS on August 08, 2012, 04:47:15 AM
What I hear from you is " I worked hard, and I got where I am through my own sheer effort and determination. I never needed a break or advice from anyone, and I have never been frustrated in my career. So if you aren't as successful as I am, it must be your own fault."

Well not quite, I have been frustrated from time to time so I found another job and moved on but other than that yes this is a pretty good summation of my views. 

Too many people want to blame an external reason for their lack of success when the main reason they've failed is their own fault.  Not everyone has the skills that are in demand and too many are lazy and ineffective in their jobs.  Those people do not succeed in anything and then when looking for the reason why they never look in to their own shortcomings instead they blame, the banks, the government, managers, schools, immigrants, Jews, Catholics, Protestants, etc etc.  I'm sick of the politics of envy.  The world does NOT owe you anything you need to earn everything.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: 408 on August 08, 2012, 07:17:01 AM

Good thing that for every "whining" post here, there will always be an arrogant one like yours to balance it out. What I hear from you is " I worked hard, and I got where I am through my own sheer effort and determination. I never needed a break or advice from anyone, and I have never been frustrated in my career. So if you aren't as successful as I am, it must be your own fault."

If you are not successful it is your own fault.  Go on, blame others for your shortcomings, and I guarantee you will never stop being a sucker.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Dan on August 08, 2012, 07:59:25 AM
This thread is degenerating fast. If nonconstructive comments continue the thread will be locked.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sdfsfgfdgdfdf on August 14, 2012, 09:21:24 PM
For those claiming that if you failed, essentially, you were either too lazy or incompetent... you must consider that chance is a very important element in life... there are simply too many things that an individual can not control... It is true that if you work hard and have a positive expectation you will be more likely to succeed, but that will not necessarily always be the case. One thing that you certainly can not control is the state of the economy and the job market... and in every success story there is always an element of luck...

On the other hand, there are always those that didn't try hard enough, but I doubt you'll hear them complaining.

And it is possible to have been really enthusiastic and excited about chemistry when first starting out and to then have that feeling dumbed down by a series of unpleasant experiences... After all its not a very easy major, nor is it an easy profession. However much you may like chemistry, no one spends years of their life training in this field to not be appreciated for it.

I would recommend this talk to you if you can sit through it (its not very exciting)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtSE4rglxbY
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: 408 on August 24, 2012, 06:28:05 AM


I would recommend this talk to you if you can sit through it (its not very exciting)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtSE4rglxbY


I see that, and raise you :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVlgtsAggRc
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxS731BtTsQ&feature=related
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sdfsfgfdgdfdf on August 28, 2012, 12:55:36 PM
haha that's funny. But seriously, this guy is so cheesy. And his ideas are so outdated. He's all empty words, taking money from desperate people, willing to pay people like him to sell them motivation. But motivation isn't everything. I'm surprised he's not selling success crystals. This man is anti-empathy. I don't like that. And I don't like him. He looks like a corporate schmuck. 

I'm sure that everyone that has "whined" here tried hard and tried to take many different career paths. But how many paths can you take with a degree in chemistry? Chemistry is not an easy major and its not an easy profession. I don't mean to undermine other professions, but some really are a lot easier. Many of these people spent years of their lives studying and training and its not fair to insult them by saying they are lazy whiners.

It's easy for people to put others down, or be all positive motivation or something when they're at the top... but then when they fall down... they have a change of heart... and the wheel does keep turning all the time...

And another thing, now that I've gotten more interested in this subject, I've read many articles about this problem. My conclusion is that too many trained professionals are being produced in the west and there are not enough jobs to accommodate all of them, so you can say there is an inflation in trained professionals in STEM fields. The people that spent their youth at university, investing in the future, are the victims of this.   
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: fledarmus on August 28, 2012, 02:03:18 PM
You get paid for having what people need, and the need for chemists in the United States has fallen spectacularly over the last 15 years. The largest consumer of advanced chemistry degrees was the pharmaceutical industry, and the large pharmaceutical companies paid very high wages for a lot of chemists with really good benefits and job security. Now many of the large pharmaceutical companies have disappeared in mergers and acquisitions, and the ones remaining have stripped their research divisions to almost nothing. The almost nothing that remains is a small amount of contract labor at low wages with no job security at all, and a very few directors and managers that are managing mostly overseas contract research.

There is still relatively consistent, low demand for analytical chemists and materials chemists, some demand in formulations, and a small (and highly competitive!) demand in academics, but the vast numbers of chemists that we needed in the 60's-90's are no longer in demand. All of the advice I have seen recently for getting a job with a chemistry degree involves "non-traditional" chemistry jobs and "alternative" career paths. Or going overseas - I hear that there is a high demand for good research and language skills in India and China, and some in the former Soviet bloc countries.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Daveolyte on August 29, 2012, 05:20:14 PM
Well, I got an internship my sophomore year, and continued to work at the same firm for the next 3 while I finished my degree.  I don't make a king's ransom or anything, but I have a job in R&D.  I love it.  I synthesize something new almost every day.  I know I'm lucky, but I really don't think it's nearly as bleak as OP paints it. 

If you want a good job in chem, study something viable to the future.  Energy storage, materials, etc. 

Good luck out there.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Borek on September 04, 2012, 02:59:29 AM
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/08/what_is_the_value_of_a_science_phd_is_graduate_school_worth_the_effort_.html
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: yesway on September 04, 2012, 12:47:22 PM
@Elena, I enjoyed the video link. Good talk.

On topic: Are there options for organic chemists other than big pharma or academia? Materials synthesis? Specialty/fine chemicals? Should I learn Mandarin (not to be taken sarcastically) or another major language ? Should I learn programming/sysadmin skills? Or in general, how can one improve their prospects of landing a job in science?

Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: ghaznavi on September 04, 2012, 06:42:40 PM
Oh no. :(

Is the pharmaceutical industry in the same situation?
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Jasim on September 11, 2012, 11:11:42 AM
In organic chemistry Materials Science is a big area. IT skills are more useful for analytical chemists, but if you want to do very large scale synthesis in an industrial like setting IT skills would be useful. Large scale synthesis is now performed by robotics which must be programmed, troubleshooted, and maintained - that's where IT skills for an organic chemist would be handy.

If you are looking for more international opportunities, as far as languages go I would recommend German, Japanese, or Mandarin...India also has a sizable chemistry industry.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: benjamin5476 on September 17, 2012, 06:16:13 AM
I agree with moderator opinion,I engaged in this profession has six years in taiwan .Last year, I give up the job,I think if I do it again,my later life won't have too big significance.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: OC pro on September 18, 2012, 07:53:46 AM
Here in Germany the situation is relaxed these days for chemists. I could easily switch from my former company into a new one. Also, most of the people I have studied with got a nice job somewhere in Germany. In fact, good chemists are highly demanded by the industry here.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Jasim on September 18, 2012, 10:36:21 AM
Every post on this thread just seems to reinforce the same thing... Chemistry jobs aren't everywhere, but chemists are in very high demand where the jobs are located.

This makes sense with regards to the industry itself. If you want to be able to work anywhere, go into the service industry or healthcare...We need those workers in just about every location on the planet that has people living there. If you want to be a chemist, then you need to be in an area that has an active chemical industry, a high tech area, and/or an area that is active in research. Those kinds of locations aren't everywhere, but in those locations demand is very high and compensation is very competitive.

To those posters who have nothing but negative comments, Stop complaining! If you want to work in this industry and you can't find a decent job in your area, then you probably need to move. This industry isn't for everyone, but I LOVE my job, I get paid well to do it, and every day I learn something new.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Doc Oc on September 18, 2012, 04:15:50 PM
Unless you have authority over the moderators, people are free to complain here as much as they please until the moderator deems it excessive.

I agree that moving to a hub area often helps tremendously, but it is not a cure all, especially in this current job climate.  There's lots of smart people out there with a lot of knowledge and skill that were displaced due to business decisions that had nothing to do with their performance.  And a lot of them are having trouble getting jobs because they're perceived as too costly and/or too old.  Thousands of them were cut from jobs in hub areas where the market is now saturated with outstanding talent not only from other displaced scientists, but also top tier universities.

You're right, this industry isn't for everyone.  And politicians, professors, or journalists who don't know anything about this shouldn't have the loudest voices.  But they do.  And that's part of the reason the job market is so tight; there's just too many of us who bought into it.  The people that survive aren't all going to be the best and brightest.  Often they're the most flexible and determined.  If you love organic/medicinal chemistry and want to make drugs for a living, great.  If you think you're always going to have a fulfilling job doing that and that you'll be making good money until you retire, you're going to be very disappointed.  The people who are being negative in this thread are coming to that realization, and that's a very bitter pill.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Jasim on September 24, 2012, 11:24:48 AM
My apologies if I came off harsh in my last post. The 'solution' of moving may be out of reach for many people. I was a lucky one and only unemployed/underemployed for a few months.

NPR's Planet Money recently did an article on a computer model that Moody's (a big economic data analysis group) created to give an idea of just how the unemployment rate would be affected by various changes in market, global economy, policy changes....almost anything you can think of.

See: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/09/14/161153421/even-if-youre-all-powerful-its-hard-to-fix-the-economy

Unfortunately, the result of the analysis didn't create much hope. We are living in a different world than even just a few years ago. It's not just chemists and chemical industries that are suffering.

My heart goes out to those that are still struggling, especially those with families to support. Vent on here if you need to, I didn't mean to criticize that aspect of this thread.

But I also think that being successful, or successfully pulling yourself out of a rut requires persistence. It has been said time and again that in today's world we have to continue to learn and grow our skill base in order to keep ourselves marketable. Gone are the times of being employed by a single company for 40+ years and retiring at a set age with a pension. That just doesn't happen anymore. Today's workforce is expected to be more mobile, having a constantly updated skill-set, and not be opposed to moving from job-to-job or company-to-company.

I guess what I want to convey is that there is work out there. You may not become rich, but if you play it smart financially, keep learning, never give up, then I believe you can find a niche to make a comfortable life for yourself and family.

Good luck to all those who are still un/under-employed.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Doc Oc on October 01, 2012, 08:54:07 AM
Jasim, I think you bring valuable insight and advice to people on this matter.

I generally try to take it easy on people who are struggling because I know how bad the situation is and I've seen it really wreak havoc in peoples' lives (ie; marriages ending because the couple couldn't find work in the same state).  I also remember having my own existential crisis when I was unemployed for a while, wondering if I'd be a PhD chemist working at a coffee shop because I couldn't secure a position.  I persisted and landed a great job, but I know also know it's temporary and that at some point I'll need to look for a new job.  As you said, it's a scary job climate out there right now, I just hope I can get to a place where I don't have to worry about the next 5 years all the time.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on November 25, 2012, 11:01:14 AM
I don't subscribe to the dismissive and denialist arguments made in this thread. The idea that the people working crap jobs or are unemployed are just hacks who can't cut it is just arrogant, derogatory, blame-the-victim nonsense. For the record I hold a pretty decent job now. I managed to find a smaller company that doesn't treat their science staff like disposable pipette tips.

I've also watched a lot of gifted scientists taken advantage of, tossed out onto the streets, and not hired in favor of cronies and people that BSed the bimbos in HR during the interview.

I look at the future of chemistry in this country and don't see a whole lot to be hopeful about. I watch big pharma's like Pfizer and Abbott move their research to China and India and use the surplus of scientists to abuse the heck out of the ones here at home. Abbott especially is in the process of laying off most of their research staff and replacing them with permatemps who get no benefits, paid less because a parasite agency is siphoning their pay, and can be dropped with 1 phone call at any time for any reason. It is not just pharma. Abbott, Baxter, Kraft, Pepsi, Conagra, and all the larger companies seem to be following the same model.

I also see plants closing down because it is cheaper to open them in places where the EPA and OSHA aren't looking over their shoulder and you can simply bribe third world officials to look the other way.

I've watched many of my colleagues some of whom were smarter than myself give up on the field and go into teaching or to business/law/health care after reaching the same conclusions as myself.

I definitely would not advice anyone to consider a science degree and would not even allow my own children to do so.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Fishy on November 25, 2012, 03:46:28 PM
Love the "treat their science staff like disposable pipette tips" comment!
I'm a plastic pipette!  Please hire me!   :D
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: LAE91-6 on April 04, 2013, 08:55:07 PM
I totally disagree about your stance regarding not getting as science degree. It basically saved my life. When i was in high school I hated Chemistry, loved Biology and wanted to be a doctor. So my grades and ACT score (also my ethnic background) were barely good enough to get into UW-Madison the best public school in the state and one of the best public schools in the country. A lot of good it did me! Nobody warned me about how big a drug and party school it was and i left after three years with a 1.00GPA and a class I felony. I thought my life was over and that I would never get a job anywhere. I had to go to a community college back in my hometown of Milwaukee to gt my grades good enough to get into UW-Milwaukee, a real 4 year school. While at the community college, I lied and said I was good at chemistry in order to become an SI leader (community college TA). The prof I worked for smelled my bulls&$# and sat me down after each class to teach me chemistry from the beginning. I realized that I was not only good at chemistry but I actually enjoyed it especially teaching it. Even though my Dad was a higher up in Milwaukee public schools, he couldnt get me a teaching job with a felony. So i decided to take my chances and get a BioChem degree. It was the hardest thing I ever did and it took me 6 years to get my B.S. but i did it! I was immediately contacted by staffing agencies and was begging to get any science job I could, i even worked a demolition job for $10/hr while I waited for an interview. After two failed interviews for QC positions (they basically told me that you dont want this job you will b bored to death) i had a good interview with a large cleaning products company. I got a 6 month contract for $14/hr and by the grace of God a full time position opened up at the end of the contract and I beat out 2 other contractors who had been there longer than I was. I just celebrated 1 yr with the company as a full time employee and have already travelled to 3 different States plus a 2 week trip to the Netherlands and Switzerland all in my first year! I started off working a maximum of 19 hrs/ week at $8/hr as a chem tutor and now I make $23/hr salaried with benefits and a 401k. I am a project technical leader and have international travel under my belt all in my first year! I would never get hired anywhere as a convicted felon without a science degree. It is so worth it
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on April 27, 2013, 08:51:05 AM
I see things differently.

As you found out the industry has been taken over by staffing agencies who are used as shell companies by businesses wanting to hire chemists cheap, without benefits, and can be let go with only 1 phone call. Basically a cheap disposable workforce you can treat like dirt or as a Kelly ad from the 70's showcased a "The Never-Never Girl" — a worker who never takes a vacation, asks for a raise or "costs you for fringe benefits."

$14/hr is $29k and with a staffing agency without any benefits that is roughly the equivalent of lower $20's. Not much better than min wage jobs and certainly not something to brag about especially for someone who completed among the most difficult BS degrees (not as tough as engineering or computer science but no comparison to most business and lib arts majors). 

They were probably willing to overlook the felony because the staffing agencies are really desperate to get very intelligent college grads to work their pathetically underpaying crap jobs and to stay in them for any length of time when most such people have so many better options. The felony limits your abilities to quit and find better work. You might want to see if it can be expunged in the future. It is the same with H1'bs business like that they have limited abilities to quit and find better work so they can underpay and over work them with limited risk of them quitting.

Even your full benefits job in the lower $40's k for as long as you have it and don't get laid off and end up back doing crapo temp jobs is about what you can make skipping college and working fast food or retail and working up to manager. Heck I worked with a renowned cheese chemist from Kraft who led his own group and got laid off and ended up a never never girl/guy earing $40k no benefits =~ $35k. That salary I'd call mediocre. You can live ok as a single. You can afford ~ a $100k house which is pretty much no house in most metro areas or a small dingy house in most rural or far outer suburban areas.

Given that only ~30% of the nation has a Bachelor's degree at all and most aren't difficult STEM degrees I wouldn't hesitate to place anyone with a science degree in the top 10% of intelligence/most educated. I think they should aspire to better than being a never, never guy/girl with the quality of life of a fast food manager.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Pharmmech2222222 on April 27, 2013, 11:06:03 AM
I won't be as harsh as OP. I'm glad for my degree in chemistry. The scientific trainings provided by my education changed the way I viewed the  natural world. However, I do have to agree with OP that chemistry as a career has some problems.

I hated chemistry in high school because of a poor teacher. I took a year of general chemistry classes in college as part of my degree requirement for physics in a major midwestern university in the United States. I love chemistry so much, I changed my major to chemistry. I completed all my degree requirements in three years and decided to stay another year to take non-required electives. I graduated with cum laude in 2007.

My first job out of college was with a small pharmaceutical company as an analytical chemist. That job required me to be at work ten hours a day. I worked 50 hours a week. No, I didn't take one hour lunch break ( more like 15 minutes). I was naive, and I didn't know any better so I accepted that job as a non-exempted salary position. That worked out wonderfully for the company because they don't have to pay me a dime overtime for the extra 10 hours of free work they gotten out of me every week.

I worked hard. The company wants me to be come in at 6am. Done. The company wants me to come in on weekend. Done. The company wants me to take out the trash. Done. The company wants me to work in mind numbing boring production line putting vials into boxes. Done. What did I gotten out of the company? Effective wage of $12/hour with benefits. I've gotten 10% raise the first year, then no raise for next two years. The only reason I stayed that long was the wonderful co-workers and friends I made there.

Three years later, I finally found another pharmaceutical job that's not a shitty contract position with no benefits. I moved to middle of nowhere in one of the west coast states. That job pays well ($27/hour with benefits plus bonus). I'm finally able to think about my future by contributing to my 401k retirement fund. Unfortunately, after two years I was laid off along with 10% of workforce when few projects the company worked on failed the clinical trials.

I have been jobless for the last half year. During that time I have interviews with multiple companies nationwide.

The labs that offered jobs were either:
1. In middle of nowhere
2. Short-term contract position with no benefits
3. Terrible work environments with low pay(i.e. mind numbing boring QC jobs). 
4. All of the above.

The conclusion I drawn from my job search was that I should stop doing science and change my career. I will further contribute to the "STEM Shortage" by leaving my profession. I'm fortunate that I don't have a family to support and I have saving that allowed the flexiblity to change career. There are a lot of people out there who are not so fortunate. It would be catastrophe if I have a family to support. Think how terrible it would be if I have children and I need to move every few years all over the country just to find a job.

I only have experience in pharma industry. For those who don't know, the pharma industry is in terrible situation right now. Google "patent cliff"  There were massive laid off of scientists in the last few years as pharma companies tried to save money in face of inevitable revenue short-fall. Tens of thousands of experienced chemists were laid off. More and more pharmaceutical raw materials and R&D functions were outsourced to India and China. The few jobs that remained were either high risk contract positions(i.e. they can fire you at any time) or "purple squirrel" positions advertised by big pharma.

Even if you can find a job, advancement as a B.S. level chemist is extremely limited. Most common response to that glass ceiling is move into management. But seriously, how many managers do you need? Not everyone get be a manager. Don't even bother to do MS. In most of the job postings I saw, MS in chemistry is equivalent to two years of work experience. PhD is  not immune to job insecurity. PhD level jobs will pay more, but there are fewer of them. It's more difficult to find job as PhD. I have met many PhD chemists who have to move across the country with their young children to pursue a new job. Or the PhD chemist who leave their family in another state and could only see them on weekend after 7 hours commute.

I love science, I love chemistry, unfortunately at this point it's just not a very good career choice. I also have to disagree with the dismissal attitudes some of the posters expressed here. The job market is terrible out there. Telling someone to work harder is unhelpful.

I want to end this post with some good news. Hopefully, the cheap natural gas created by fracking will motivate some chemical companies to move their productions back to U.S. and create more jobs in chemical industry.

 
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on April 27, 2013, 01:24:41 PM
Yep I'm fortunate to work in the food industry and for a small company that doesn't just hire never never people: who never get benefits, never get a raise, never get career development, never get promoted, never get a 401k, never get paid time off or even sick leave, better never get pregnant or have family issues. The only never for me is noone in my family will ever major in science again.  If I ever lose my current job I won't even bother looking for another job in this never never profession.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: 408 on April 27, 2013, 09:12:36 PM
You are such a downer.  Quit harshing our science buzz man.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: klsgmc on May 02, 2013, 11:22:16 AM
There are times when I can say I regretted getting my undergraduate degree in chemistry. My first job I took was for Schering-Plough working as an analytical chemist through a contract agency (in 2007) at a "whopping" 18 dollars an hour. I had taken the year off after graduating, and it was just about the only thing I could find in terms of job prospects. I stayed in that crummy contract position and made friends and ended up getting taken on full time for about 45,000 dollars a year by that December by Schering-Plough. The benefits were incredible, and the 401k contribution was excellent as well. They also ended up paying for my joint masters degree in biomedical science and business (MS/MBA), so it ended up being a worthwhile endeavor.

After finishing my masters degrees there, I ended up sticking with them until February of 2011 after receiving notice that the site was going to close down. This was right around the time that my side business started to kick off a bit (work with Google AdSense), and I took a job in business development for a start-up generic company.

I still have mixed feelings about my undergrad, especially how slowly I started off. I'm 29 now though and I just bought a nice house in a beautiful area with a pretty sizable down payment. I have no doubts that the skills I learned in chemistry enabled me to get as far professionally as I have.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: whoami on May 24, 2013, 06:11:20 AM
to be honest, chemistry is just useless avoid it if you can....pay is just too bad that even a coop in engineering pays way more than chemistry grads....I really didn't know why I chose it at the first place. Coop usually prefer engineering students because they have more application than ones in sciences.

Doing all those labs that waste your valuable time that you could actually study is just ridiculous. Very time consuming, each of them takes about 10 hours a week at least. I wonder how profs expect you to come prepared to class if you have 3 labs a week.

Come on, getting below 50k.....is really not my goal of my life...I am looking at 75K+ a year at least.... I am glad I left chemistry now and got into law school. really enjoying it because its more related to life. f&#$ chemistry unless you really love it and money is nothing for you.

On the other hand, I am looking into moving back to asia after late 20s and a science degree even a masters degree is totally useless because there are no industries at all. Its just all about business.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Corribus on May 24, 2013, 12:46:36 PM
I am looking at 75K+ a year at least....
As a PhD chemist I make comfortably over 75K a year, not including benefits.  I say this so that people interested in chemistry aren't turned off by all the posts that say the pay for chemistry jobs isn't good.  Whether this salary is worth the time and sweat put into getting the degree is of course a matter of some subjectivity.  True, there are no Bentleys in my near future, but I do very much enjoy my job, and you can't put a dollar value on that.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Faith_C on May 29, 2013, 06:13:41 AM
I would just like to share my chemistry story. I chose to major in chemistry because I had been so passionate about it in high school. I loved science and I couldn't see myself choosing a major in anything but science. However, there comes a point where your interests and the dynamic of your personality collide. For me, the information overload was utterly overwhelming. I recall a time where I burst into tears in front of my professor because I was so stressed out from the mountain of work before me. This caused me to become slightly bitter toward my chosen field, and my passion began to diminish. I couldn't think of anything else I could do, and I didn't want to be in school forever switching from one major to another like some friends did, so I stuck it out and got my degree. I felt the pressure to find a related job in the field, so I did, and worked for a couple months on contract as a lab tech at a very large and notorious home products company. I enjoyed my coworkers, the environment and the area, but after a couple of months I had to return to my hometown for personal reasons. I probably would not have minded staying there had I not had other issues to deal with. The person who had the job before me had been hired on full-time in another position at the company, and everyone there was friendly, passionate and cultured. The pay was not great, but that has never been a deciding factor for me.

Back in my hometown, I got a lab tech job at a glass company. The difference between the two environments was astounding. I sincerely feel that location is everything. Certain areas attract certain types of people and/or certain areas have an effect (positive or negative) on people. Either way, the culture at this place was horrific. Everybody was uncultured, self-centered and juvenile. No one seemed to have the talent of diplomacy. Complaining, usually as an attempt at a "joke," was prevalent. The management was uninvolved, one-dimensional and lazy. There was just this overall feeling that everyone was unhappy and hated their job. Again, I sincerely feel that location is everything. Yes, it was my hometown, but I am a realist and feel no sympathetic ties to it. I have had other jobs in both places and have experienced the same attitude/culture trends, across the board.

While working at this job, I reached a place existentially where I asked myself what I was really doing in this field. I had long since lost my passion for research and chemistry as a profession, and I was working a demeaning, unfulfilling contract job when I was *supposed* to be starting my "career." In a series of rapid-fire job changes, I finally got a part-time marketing-arena job that I actually enjoy. It is minimum wage, but it is one-hundred times more fulfilling than the lab tech job I had making $17/hr. Right now I am so glad to be doing something I actually enjoy, with enough free-time to read up on my new hobby, science, that I haven't even given much thought to possible career changes. (I must point out that I have a partner who is able to help out financially, and we do live quite cheaply.)

My advice to anyone out there with a degree in chemistry, or anything else, who is not 100% sure that they want to continue in their field, would be to be simply honest and true to yourself, and to do what *you* feel is right for *you*, and to not do something "out of obligation" or because someone else wished it upon you. I have found that I enjoy learning about science, but I don't think I can "do" science. Making a hobby your career is a good way to ruin that hobby. Furthermore, consider the location of a potential job as a good indicator for how that company's culture is going to be, and determine how important that is to you. It seems like areas where arts and culture are important tend to have better people. Just sayin'.

I just wanted to share my story, because I wish I had known a lot of things before trying to get a "chemistry" job. I was actually quite clueless. Maybe chemistry programs should require research credits or co-ops, to expose chemistry majors to the real world. Maybe it would be beneficial to speak with a professor or with someone at the career center before entering the job market, to get a better feel for what you are getting into. My last comment will be that, if you do decide to leave chemistry as a profession, don't feel guilty about it. Being unhappy is so not worth the "use" of your college degree. :)
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: thephysicsdude on July 18, 2013, 10:37:50 AM
Hmmph, interesting thread.   well, i'm a chemistry major going for his b.s. degree in an acs accredited program at a state school.  its sort of like  factory for turning out college degrees though. my gpa sucks and I am not going to grad school, lol never wanted to become a slave.   

  I have not graduated yet and am 30 years old.   been going part time, like 3-7 credits a semester and working full time jobs paying close to min. wage, averaging 32-56( did that number for  a year) hours a week.    im hedging my bets by graduating with no loans or credit card debt since theres no ironclad guarantee of a job after school to justify this degree.   

 like my dad told me, this degree is like machine bought by company to perform so that it makes money.  yet, the cost of college gets lost in purchasing the machine with the high student debt and no guarantee of a job after school unless it s a good major.   

chemistry is great, the labs are so exciting and thought provoking.    used to subscribe to chemical and engineering news but it was retarded and borderline useless, unless you're a minority.  plus, their facts and job figures were dubious statistics at best.   

i mean, one guy I know graduate with a 2.4 gpa in chemistry and was told, haha yeah you're not getting a job.  well he did, at food warehouse testing stuff, lol, making half way decent money.   and I hear about some ph.ds who graduate and get a good job in industry.   and I heard the district manager of rent a car in my city makes a lot of dough and he has a chem degree, bachelors only lol.  he worked his way up the rungs.   still the stats suck and a lot of it is even worse for too many of us during this so called recovery.    another guy I know graduated from rit with his nuclear physics ph.d (yeah like those guys in the big bang theory) and couldn't get a job with his huge debt.   

so don't despair guys.    all a college degree is is a gateway, nothing more.   it's what you make of it.   so mi say get the science degree and then take the frickin blinders off and see there's no guarantee of anything after college so be smart about it. 
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on July 19, 2013, 10:49:35 AM
http://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/careers/salaries/surveys/salaries-2012.pdf

Yea ACS is worthless. Their salary stats are laughably unrealistic. $73,800 median salary for a chemist at the BS level. Try asking for that from an employer and they will laugh for five minutes before shredding your resume. The going rate for a BS chemist is around $35k and as I stated before you are lucky to get any benefits with that as most companies are using contract agencies to avoid that. Most of their surveys only poll their members which most average chemists have no interest in paying to get their drivel on how the "H1b program in enhancing diversity in the field" or how there is a terrible shortage of American science grads, (though some of their journals are decent).

Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on August 06, 2013, 10:21:50 AM
Just to further emphasis how worthless the ACS is they actually published an article on the benefits of being a permatemp. I mean come on cen could write an article on how the bubonic plague was great for Europe.


http://www.cen-chemjobs.org/jobseeker/articles/permatemp.html

Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: BrokeDown on December 10, 2013, 02:36:50 AM
Update on my situation.   I ended up biting the bullet and had to go back to school all over again. There were literally no options even with 5 years full time experience with organic synthesis and 1 year experience with QA. This time I'm studying mechanical engineering.   With luck I'll be able to finish up the bachelor's in 2.5 years since I've been taking course work nonstop throughout all semesters and summers.   I was also able to get a lot of intro coursework scratched out because of my former Chem degree.  I've also picked up python, matlab, and C++ on the side.   It stinks to be 30 and not have a real career yet, hopefully I can get back to work soon, work for a little while and get Into more of the business side of things when I hit my early 40s.  I just wish I never wasted those first 5 or 6 years after graduating trying to pursue gainful employment in chemistry.  I could have been manager by now if I did ME in the first place and could be cracking 75k easily with some effort. 


Good luck to all you youngins out there.  Stay away from those temp gigs. They suck years off your life without any chance for advancement or security and you'll end up like me.  After scrolling through this thread a bit I still get deoressed.  I just don't understand how some of you younger kids can be satisfied with making $20 or less per hour especially in this age when students have so much in loans to pay back.  I used to Make $20 Per Hour as an intern and that was in 2004. 
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on December 23, 2013, 10:20:44 AM
Good luck to you. I lucked out and got a great job in a flavors company. However, if anything happened to my current job I am probably going to have to quit the field as well as I am never going back to being a Kelly Lab B&tch.

Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: mkurek on December 25, 2013, 01:12:57 AM
For all interested, this is a very recent study that focuses on all 4 year degrees.

http://cew.georgetown.edu/whatsitworth/

For Chem majors, 63% get a grad degree and see 93% in earnings.

And almost all my accountant friends are jobless. If you really want job security, go into healthcare( Nursing, physician asst., etc.). But only some people like that kind of work. I don't so even though I have a useless Biochem degree, I am going to get a degree in Chem. Eng. Engineering is a good field especially for people who like to work in R&D. Actually according to what I read from the Georgetown research, Engineering is probably the best 4-year degree.

I'm a chemical engineer =] (in training)

My college's chem-e program has had 100% post-graduation job placement for over 20 years.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: hifellow on January 19, 2014, 10:26:34 AM
There are no guaranteed jobs with any degree.  Getting a degree is your starting point and if you want to pursue a field a BS is only your ticket to learn.  There is nothing wrong with a BS or MS in chemistry.  You have to realize that getting a degree in this field with a good GPA shows prospective employers that you have the ability to accomplish study in a relatively difficult field.  There is a lot of truth that you are one among many people that have succeeded in this task.  Now you  have to sell yourself to land a job.  Way back, when I graduated in 1968, jobs in chemistry were very scarce too.  After putting in many applications, and having preliminary interviews I didn't receive any offers (after two months).  Went back to school for an MS in chemistry.  After three months when I was then enrolled I started receiving three offers for the jobs I applied for.  I stayed in school and got an MS degree.  After graduating, the job market got a little better.  I found a lead to one in the EPA, working as a state assignee.  They needed a chemist and I was offered a job.  Afterwards I also got offered a job by a cancer researcher and another offer for a state occupational heath department.  Here is the gist of what I am trying to say.  Unless you are regarded as a brilliant student, you cannot expect to get a job in the area of chemistry that you specialized in (i.e. organic, physical, analytical, etc.).  You have to be open for all opportunities.  First get a job that will help pay the bills. Stay in it for a few years to get experience.  Then you can be more particular.  I always thought that 50% of any job is being qualified and competent for the position, the other 50% is just as important and relates to having a good working relationship with people and being able to communicate.
If you are in school, and don’t plan on a career in research, think about getting a degree in chemical engineering if you have the aptitude.  I am a chemist but I learned that by far a BS in chemical engineering has a much more of a chance at landing good jobs than a MS in chemistry especially when it comes to promotions and management jobs.   I always thought that there must be a “secret society of engineers.”
If you want to be a researcher or professor, your PhD is a necessity unless, you teach in a community college.  But, the PhD is only a start.  You have to prove yourself to keep any job especial one that pays the premiums for a PhD!!!  You have 30 - 40 years to do so.
I also had a liking for organic chemistry and was good at it.  But 95 percent of all jobs for chemists are analytical.  Unless your find an entry level chemist job in an up starting business, you will most likely be an assistant to an experienced PhD.
If you want a job you must be willing to pursue anything you can get.  You are the master of your fate!
Another thing - If your want a job you have to be willing to move anywhere in the country.   You have a much greater chance going to a prospective employer and knocking on the door to introduce yourself.  I hear so many people today that all they do is submit applications.  You have to do something "out of the ordinary."  I was a shy guy when I graduated from school, but I once knocked on the office door of a congressional senator just to be able to ask if I could use him as a reference for a job.
A couple of places to find jobs:  Oil and Chemical industries.  Try Wyoming and Colorado:  State governments (overlooked)  -  the Federal government - The EPA and environmental jobs.  There are many industrial plants that have labs in all states. 
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: sschoe2 on January 23, 2014, 04:43:29 PM
Indeed analytical is where the jobs are. There is a good reason. It is low paying, dead end and at many places insanely boring so most chemists can not stand more than a few years of it. Unfortunately industry has decided that analytical chemist = technician = the same pay that HS or AS level lab personnel used to get a decade or two ago. Most companies with an analytical lab staff it with perma-temps and after the agency gets their cut you will be left with ~$15 per hour. Like I said earlier, less money than a fast food manager. Also a lot of the compendia like the much maligned USP locks you into analytical methods that are poorly designed, decades out of date with respect to current methods and technology, with unrealistic pass/fail criteria that will drive you insane.

I also get the idea that the business and HR people that set salaries have the idea that analytical chemistry consists of pouring whatever the sample is directly into a GC, HPLC, or ICP and waiting for the instrument to spit a result out which may be part of the explanation why it pays so lousy, they figure it takes the same amount of skill as operating the cash register at McDonalds.

Things have changed since 1968. Employees are not just hired into entry level roles and trained because they are smart and have potential. Most companies have absolutely minimal if any training programs. They will post a job with a laundry list of extrely specific experience requirement that are often beyond absurd and leave the job open for years rather than compromise on it.  The hiring process is very one dimmensional. Workers are seen as one sized creascent wrenches capable of doing one task identical to what is in their work history.

Finally yes their are no guaranteed jobs with any degree but try to pick a degree with better prospects than $15 an hour temp jobs and high unemployment especially a degree that takes this much inteligence and work. There are a lot of degrees out there that would not guarnatee a decent job but would have a much higher probability of one for a smart hard working individual than chemistry.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Benzene Martini on March 21, 2014, 08:22:21 PM

I also get the idea that the business and HR people that set salaries have the idea that analytical chemistry consists of pouring whatever the sample is directly into a GC, HPLC, or ICP and waiting for the instrument to spit a result out which may be part of the explanation why it pays so lousy, they figure it takes the same amount of skill as operating the cash register at McDonalds.


Chemists have to smarten up.

The main thing I have learned about the chemical industry is that R&D is a cost center. Research costs money and does not always offer a return on investment. This is why many research jobs are outsourced. Twenty years ago, it would have been preposterous to suggest that R&D be outsourced to India or China. Nowadays, it is common practice.

Many companies and governments give lip service to STEM fields. But the only STEM fields that matter anymore are technology or engineering. Chemists, biologists, physicists, and many other science majors do not count. Don't even get me started on what a BS in Math will do for you.

Chemists have to realize that companies want to save money. Saving money on R&D is what most companies are going to do for the long term. If one wants to do research, one must find a way to bring in the money. The money is all that matters.

Don't feel bad if you have worked hard and have not been successful. It is not all of your fault. It takes an ability to think about alternaive options and to be brave. One thing I learned about most chemistry majors is that they studied hard and took very little risk. Gaining the ability to take risks and to see the world as a table for negotiation is one of the most critical skill sets for chemists.

Chemists have to smarten up.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: TemporaryMan on May 19, 2014, 10:24:40 PM
You seem to me to be a whinging waste of space; no wonder nobody want to give you a job. 

Just having a degree in a subject does not lead to a career you need to work at it. 

I got my chemistry degree in 1991 and my PhD in 1995.  I started my first job the Monday after my PhD viva and I have never been unemployed since.  I started on a temp contract via an employment agency.  I worked hard and showed my commitment and was taken on by the company after ~6 months.  I worked there for another year and then left for a better job.  I stayed in that one for just over 3 years and then moved to my current company nearly 11 years ago.  I own my own home and other than the mortgage (less than 40% of the house value) I have no other debts.

For me a career in chemistry has been good.  I would probably earn more money if i had become an accountant but who wants to do that for a living?

Think about post-2008 U.S.A you jerk.  By the way professor, it's spelled "WHINING."  I hope your job outsources and you get 10 calls/day for 3 month contract jobs.  Pfft.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: TemporaryMan on May 19, 2014, 10:40:14 PM
Oh boo hoo. Come on now.

1. What exactly makes you feel entitled to your dream job solely on the basis of having a degree? There will always be competition, when times are tough you need to up your game.

2. Get some perspective. It's not only science that's feeling the squeeze at the moment, and it's not like you're sleeping rough in Mogadishu is it?

3. You think China's chemistry paradise? Move there. Geographical flexibility is exactly the kind of thing you need to be prepared to exercise in a scientific career, even more so if the employment situation in your country a problem. That's life - it is what everyone around the world does. If you're not prepared to pull your finger out and do what it takes then that's your problem.

Earning a degree in a science such as chemistry should afford most the same quality of life that a custodian enjoyed twenty years ago.  Being disappointed that you will will likely never own a house or have any financial stability is not whining and is not a display of feeling entitled.  I have seen offers for M.S. chemists to start at $13/hour.  I made $7/hour shining shoes in a country club when I was 14.  Clearly, many of you who are hostile are not from the U.S.A. and are bitter and hateful.  I sense this is a Roman Holiday for you folks.  Enjoy, you will know what it's like soon enough. 
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Carbinolamine on May 19, 2014, 11:18:40 PM
Landing a job in the field of chemistry is easy, but sad to say that the salary is not as high as business courses. But salary is not important as long as you love what you are doing then it will give you satisfaction in your chosen field.
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: 408 on May 20, 2014, 11:08:30 AM
Be the best and there is always jobs.  I just see a mediocre loser whining. 

A quote from my favorite person to follow on twitter "Don't see many well traveled successful millionaires complaining about the States."

If you are so sure about the path of America....short the S&P 500 now.  Dare you. 
Title: Re: Chemistry: terrible profession that ruined my life
Post by: Borek on May 21, 2014, 08:30:01 AM
This thread has run its course.