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General Forums => Generic Discussion => Topic started by: DrCMS on December 17, 2012, 05:20:52 AM

Title: Gun Control
Post by: DrCMS on December 17, 2012, 05:20:52 AM
How likely is gun control in the aftermath of the most recent tragedy in Newtown, Connecticut?

I'm guessing there wil be some talk but no real changes made and this will become just another mass killing among way too many.

Looking in from the sidelines the case for gun control seems to be so strong but it never happens; what is the feeling over there?  Is this case with such young children different?
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: Doc Oc on December 17, 2012, 02:08:20 PM
I'm guessing there wil be some talk but no real changes made and this will become just another mass killing among way too many.

This.  Every time the debate comes up in the midst of a tragedy like this, there's little more than posturing that occurs.  Neither side will budge and both will trot out the same tired arguments they've always used.

I'm not pro-gun by any means, but I don't necessarily think banning them will end this type of problem.  We have deeper issues in this country where people are deciding that they're going to solve their problems by killing a bunch of innocent bystanders.  Whether you do that with a gun, a knife, or a bomb, those types of things seem to be growing disturbingly more common.  Maybe we shouldn't let Hollywood glamorize cases like Casey Anthony's; I think we can all agree that there's no way she should be getting anything but a good stiff beating.
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: DrCMS on December 17, 2012, 05:17:50 PM
I'm not pro-gun by any means, but I don't necessarily think banning them will end this type of problem.  We have deeper issues in this country where people are deciding that they're going to solve their problems by killing a bunch of innocent bystanders.  Whether you do that with a gun, a knife, or a bomb, those types of things seem to be growing disturbingly more common.

I agree with this to a degree but you only need to look at what happened in Chenpeng village in Henan province the day before this shooting at Sandy Hook to see the difference having easy access to guns makes to those people who decide to hurt others because they are f*$#&@ up losers.


How can any sane adult justify the sale of assault rifles and handguns in their country.  The only use these weapons have is killing another human being and I am very glad I live in a country that prevents my fellow countrymen from arming themselves with weapons like this they could turn on me if they have a bad day.
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: curiouscat on December 17, 2012, 10:49:49 PM
I'm no fan of guns either but I'll add the caveat that if a determined, intelligent man wants to commit mass murder, modern  life offers ample ways to do it and it really is a losing battle to stop him. I guess we should still try though.  (My irritation is against items the govt. starts controlling and licensing just because someone could potentially use them to kill e.g. fertilizer) Or this new zest to control almost all chemicals and equipment beyond easy access by the common man.

Maybe we can just hope for less intelligent psychopaths for the future.
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: Doc Oc on December 18, 2012, 01:20:30 AM
Well stated curiouscat.

DrCMS, I have no problem with guns being outlawed wholesale.  I just don't think that people who are set on doing evil will allow that to stop them.
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: DrCMS on December 18, 2012, 05:21:23 AM
As I said earlier I agree with you totally that if someone is hell bent on hurting Innocent people because they have messed up their own life they will find a way to do that. 
However, easy access to guns with large magazines make killing lots of other people much too easy. 

I can not understand why Americans are so insistent on the right to bear arms in the 21st century.  So what if that was a good idea 200 odd years ago; today it is a terrible idea.  Your constitution should not be an unchangeable monolith.  It should be adapted and updated to work in the modern world we live in otherwise it becomes a historic anachronism with little value.
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: curiouscat on December 18, 2012, 06:00:04 AM
As I said earlier I agree with you totally that if someone is hell bent on hurting Innocent people because they have messed up their own life they will find a way to do that. 
However, easy access to guns with large magazines make killing lots of other people much too easy. 

Agreed.
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: Mitch on December 18, 2012, 07:50:04 PM
I just wish that mentally ill people wouldn't be allowed near guns. Perhaps teaching a mentally handikapped person to shoot isn't a good idea. That being said, my nephew loves shooting and has mental problems, makes me nervous.
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: Doc Oc on December 19, 2012, 11:05:15 AM
As I said earlier I agree with you totally that if someone is hell bent on hurting Innocent people because they have messed up their own life they will find a way to do that. 
However, easy access to guns with large magazines make killing lots of other people much too easy. 

I can not understand why Americans are so insistent on the right to bear arms in the 21st century.  So what if that was a good idea 200 odd years ago; today it is a terrible idea.  Your constitution should not be an unchangeable monolith.  It should be adapted and updated to work in the modern world we live in otherwise it becomes a historic anachronism with little value.

DrCMS, I have no problem with guns being outlawed wholesale.

You don't have to convince me.

As a society, the US has bigger problems than just gun control.  People have decided that the proper way to vent their feelings is to take it out on the people around them.  While this act itself is not new, the frequency appears to be increasing.  When you see Casey Anthony getting paid a lot of money for a book and movie deal that tell the story of how she murdered her own daughter and got away with it, well, that might be worth society thinking you're a scumbag, right?  Whether all of these people should be considered mentally ill is even at question.  Would anyone have considered Amy Bishop, a university professor, to be mentally ill prior to her rampage?  It's easy to do after the fact.  Then you can ignore it and move on with your life.  It was easy for Harvard to setup mental health counselors after Jason Altom killed himself.  Those programs conveniently lost their funding as the years went by.  It's easier to throw a band-aid on something than to deal with the real issue (fair treatment of grad students in Harvard's case).  Collectively, we as a society need to stop doing that if we want these types of things to stop.  I wish I knew how to get this process started, but I don't.
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: OC pro on December 20, 2012, 05:06:22 AM
We´ve have had deadly shootings on schools here in Germany too, but: all of these kids had easy access to guns since their parents were huntsmen or involved in shooting sport clubs. Most often, these guns were not locked away or were simple hanging in the living room. Recently, government put strict rules here. Every gun is registered and since you own one you have to lock them away in special gun racks (of course when this law came out 2 years ago prices dramatically increased for this stuff). And this will be controlled at least once a year.
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: curiouscat on December 20, 2012, 05:09:53 AM
We´ve have had deadly shootings on schools here in Germany too, but: all of these kids had easy access to guns since their parents were huntsmen or involved in shooting sport clubs. Most often, these guns were not locked away or were simple hanging in the living room. Recently, government put strict rules here. Every gun is registered and since you own one you have to lock them away in special gun racks (of course when this law came out 2 years ago prices dramatically increased for this stuff). And this will be controlled at least once a year.

As an aside the hunting / gun safety classes they make you undergo in Germany seem far more rigorous and longer than the perfunctory stuff in the US, I think?
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: OC pro on December 20, 2012, 09:45:38 AM
Yes of course. Being a huntsman is a very expensive hobby over here. 
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: DrCMS on December 22, 2012, 04:15:22 AM
I see the NRA have now come up with the suggestion of having armed guards in schools!?!

Their solution to guns in schools is to have more guns in every school.  It really doesn't matter what the problem is to them every solution involves more guns.  Just like an alcoholic "fixes" everything with more alcohol and left wing politicians "fix" everything by borrowing more money to spend on one stupid project after another you can always trust the NRA to "fix" everything with a gun.
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: Doc Oc on December 22, 2012, 03:27:48 PM
The pro-gun crowd always uses this argument.  "If a good guy has a gun, he can kill the bad guy before the bad guy can kill too many civilians."  This, of course, assumes that you're capable of maintaining your cool and shooting with accuracy when bullets start whizzing by you.  I have a friend who is in law enforcement and he said criminals have significantly better aim than the police because they get into shootouts more often.  The pro-gun crowd doesn't pay heed to things like that.  Ask them if they could have stopped the shootout in Colorado, they will always respond yes.  A dark movie theater full of people panicking and running for the exits, a gunman spraying bullets at random into the crowd; yes, they believe they'd be able to spot him and put him down with precision without losing their cool.
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: 408 on January 01, 2013, 02:40:41 PM
I almost wrote a multiple page response to this a couple times, but got bored in the middle.  Here is a link that is close to what I would have wrote.  And I am a non-American.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/lawrencehunter/2012/12/28/gun-control-tramples-on-the-certain-virtues-of-a-heavily-armed-citizenry/
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: DrCMS on January 02, 2013, 06:03:09 AM
If that article and the comments are a true reflection of your and America's views then I feel very sorry for you all and hope that one day you grow up. The 2nd amendment is a an anachronism that is now poisoning America and the thoughts that so many of the comments had that they needed a gun to defend themselves from their own government is just crazy.  Why are Americans so scared of everything?  I do not agree with what everything the UK Government is doing but I have never felt that I need a gun to make it better.
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: 408 on January 02, 2013, 09:26:19 PM
DrCMS:What is the leading non-natural cause of death in the 20th century?

Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: DrCMS on January 03, 2013, 06:25:13 AM
@408 the answer to your odd question is Democide - but how many of those were in western democracies?  The answer to that is very very few, so stop taking bizarre examples that do not apply to America to try to prove your odd claim that Americans need assault weapons to protect themselves from their own democratically elected government.

Anyway it is infantile to think that if your government turned on you that a few guys with guns would make any difference at all.
If you could mobilise a large part of the country and get significant amounts of the police and army on your side then you might stand a chance in a fight but if you had that much support in a democratic country you would not need to fight.  If you had less support you would need to fight and like Ruby Ridge and Waco you'd lose.  So it is a stupid self defeating argument made by the kind of half wits who like to play with guns and screw everyone else.
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: curiouscat on January 03, 2013, 07:03:26 AM
@DrCMS

I don't think 408's argument is as silly as that.

@408 the answer to your odd question is Democide - but how many of those were in western democracies?  The answer to that is very very few, so stop taking bizarre examples that do not apply to America to try to prove your odd claim that Americans need assault weapons to protect themselves from their own democratically elected government.

It's a bit of wishful thinking to think that a Western democracy could never take a turn for worse. People live much shorter lives than the life-span of a nation. Also, you can't really arm when you see things go bad. That's obviously too late.

Quote
Anyway it is infantile to think that if your government turned on you that a few guys with guns would make any difference at all.

A Few guys?  Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property. The numbers do vary quite a bit depending on what survey you use but it surely is more than "a few". 

Whether they can win an all out war against a determined army is a different story; but rebellions have historically always been a difficult matter.

Quote
If you could mobilise a large part of the country and get significant amounts of the police and army on your side then you might stand a chance in a fight but if you had that much support in a democratic country you would not need to fight. 


The problem is, history shows countries don't remain democratic in these messy situations.  Fights are fairly common. Even when a majority does not want a despotic ruler / government; he'll rarely graciously step down.


Quote
So it is a stupid self defeating argument made by the kind of half wits who like to play with guns and screw everyone else.

In spite of all I wrote I'm still pro-Gun-Control. Difference is, I don't think that all arguments of the other side are "stupid" ; just that it is ultimately a cost-benefit analysis. I do recognize the strong and compelling arguments against guns too (unlike the author of the Forbes piece that 408 linked to) and then make my choice.

It is indeed a more nuanced issue.  Ironically, Switzerland (which has never fought a war in 150 years) and most would think as a very safe nation has close to 4 million guns out there in a nation of only 8 million people.
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: DrCMS on January 03, 2013, 07:48:35 AM
It's a bit of wishful thinking to think that a Western democracy could never take a turn for worse. People live much shorter lives than the life-span of a nation. Also, you can't really arm when you see things go bad. That's obviously too late.

I'm not saying it could never ever happen but I think it is very very unlikely to be a problem I will ever have to deal with here in the UK or you will have to deal with in the USA. 

So the pro-gun argument goes that protect themselves against an event that is unlikely to effect anyone alive today you have to put up with multiple mass shooting per year that kill lots of people?  Having that "cure" so readily available is a lot lot worse than the disease.



Quote
Anyway it is infantile to think that if your government turned on you that a few guys with guns would make any difference at all.

A Few guys?  Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property. The numbers do vary quite a bit depending on what survey you use but it surely is more than "a few". 

Whether they can win an all out war against a determined army is a different story; but rebellions have historically always been a difficult matter.

I'm well aware of how many Americans think they need a gun to be a man but unless this uprising involves a very large amount of them it will not win against the US military and police forces.  If the uprising is that big that is could win or the army/police join it then something very wrong has happened to the country and a fire fight will not fix it.

The most likely uprising will be a few nutters on their own you do not agree with the rest of the country and they will always loose how ever they are armed because they do not have the numbers. So the 2nd Amendment militias argument is stupid infantile posturing by half wits.  It could never work in the modern world so why not just repel it and move on with a constitution that works in the modern world.
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: iLLuminatus104 on January 26, 2013, 02:43:37 AM
guns don't kill people...people kill people

i think it's short sighted to consider banning/placing more restrictions on gun sales. there are already many gun laws, we don't need more. we need to fix the people that make up the society. better education will yield more intelligent people, so my suggestion is to improve school systems and society will correct itself

more gun laws are just putting a bandaid on a stab wound. it won't fix anything and will create a greater schism between the government and citizens
Title: Re: Gun Control
Post by: Borek on January 27, 2013, 03:55:45 AM
Unfortunately thread started to attract conspiracy theories freaks. I am locking it.