Chemical Forums
Specialty Chemistry Forums => Citizen Chemist => Topic started by: Tweety on September 25, 2013, 06:17:16 AM
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Hi there :),
this is my first post and I have to sincerely admit that I am not some great chemist. :) I am trying to make this product at home:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50_-zqsgDA4
I obtained sand - natural quartz sand (grains 0.2mm)
and silicone oil - Polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS) in 100% form (I have one more viscous and one less, density is 970 kg/m3)
I am pretty much sure there are only these two ingredients involved.
Normal mixing oil with sand doesn't make the effect. I've also tried to cook it in oven (200°C for 30 minutes) with no success.
What would you suggest to try to get it mixed properly and make that great silly putty effect?
Thanks for anything
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Hi there :),
this is my first post and I have to sincerely admit that I am not some great chemist. :) I am trying to make this product at home:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50_-zqsgDA4
I obtained sand - natural quartz sand (grains 0.2mm)
and silicone oil - Polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS) in 100% form (I have one more viscous and one less, density is 970 kg/m3)
I am pretty much sure there are only these two ingredients involved.
Normal mixing oil with sand doesn't make the effect. I've also tried to cook it in oven (200°C for 30 minutes) with no success.
What would you suggest to try to get it mixed properly and make that great silly putty effect?
Thanks for anything
I think from your description of failed experiments that perhaps there are more than two ingredients in this product.
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I pretty much think it is the way how to mix these two ingredients. Maybe they are using laser? Right now, I will try to dehydrate the sand in oven and then mix it with oil at room temperature.
The reason I think there are only these two ingredients is that it is a toy and they have to write what it is made of, it says sand and Polydimethylsiloxane
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Most likely it is a clever selection of the sand with right properties (grains size/shape can play a role) and polydimethylsiloxane with a right viscosity/surface tension.
Why don't you just buy it?
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The reason I think there are only these two ingredients is that it is a toy and they have to write what it is made of, it says sand and Polydimethylsiloxane
You seem right about the ingredients. Here's their MSDS.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/05bt15rarteiktq/MSDSKineticLQ.pdf
Try drying the sand completely and then mix and stir like hell.
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The reason I think there are only these two ingredients is that it is a toy and they have to write what it is made of, it says sand and Polydimethylsiloxane
You seem right about the ingredients. Here's their MSDS.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/05bt15rarteiktq/MSDSKineticLQ.pdf
Try drying the sand completely and then mix and stir like hell.
That's pretty much where I got..
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That's pretty much where I got..
Evil minds think alike.. ;D
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Yeah :) it will be great if someone comes with a formula. I will try to add water to the process somehow
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Adding water when there is no indication on the MSDS seems counter productive.
But I am not standing in the way of experimenting.
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Water is probably what is ruining your attempts to replicate this product. Water simply won't mix with the plastic resin they're using. You will have to rigorously dry the sand you're using -- for example, in a very low oven with lots of ventilation.. Like Borek: said, its unlikely they're using beach or river sand, maybe not even construction sand. Years ago, there was a product called "moon sand" which had similar properties. One of its secrets was that, while not actually from Earth's moon, it was physically similar. Sand on earth is silicon dioxide tumbled over itself, giving rounded corners that tumble past each other on each particle. The "moon sand" product was physically similar to the lunar regolith -- very sharp edges, that can interlock over short ranges.
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Water is probably what is ruining your attempts to replicate this product. Water simply won't mix with the plastic resin they're using. You will have to rigorously dry the sand you're using -- for example, in a very how oven with lots of ventilation.. Like Borek: said, its unlikely they're using beach or river sand, maybe not even construction said. Years ago, there was a product called "moon sand" which had similar properties. One of its secrets was that, while not actually from Earth's moon, it was physically similar. Sand on earth is silicon dioxide tumbled over itself, giving rounded corners that tumble past each other on each particle. The "moon sand" product was physically similar to the lunar regolith -- very sharp edges, that can interlock over short ranges.
Note that one of the warnings on the product's website admonish to keep it away from water.
I agree with @Arkon here. Stay away from water.
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If you do have any luck, let us know. :) It would be nice to replace play-dough with this.
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I'm interested in reproducing this at home. Although the makers of the Kinetic Sand product state that only 2 ingredients are used, there has to be more. Polydimethylsiloxane may be responsible for the flow properties, but it does not have the properties that are binding the Kinetic Sand together. I am guessing borax may possibly be the binding chemical just like in silly putty.
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I've had another look at this and I've found out (just as I suspected) that another chemical is involved... Boric acid, just like in Silly Putty. The other ingredient is hydroxy-terminated polydimethylsiloxane and not just polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS). The boric acid acts as a cross-linking agent for the mixture. I've had a search and hydroxy-terminated polydimethylsiloxane looks difficult to get hold of unless your buying in bulk so making this at home may not be practicle.
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I don't know if this matters but the kinetic sand does appear different under a microscope than standard play sand. It is more uniform in grain size and has a more glassy look. The play sand grains are more cloudy. Both have similarly rounded grains.
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http://www.google.com/patents/EP2054128A1?cl=en
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Hi, did anyone have any success at this? I am now in the possession of play sand, PDMS, and boric acid, and would love to have a place to start!
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I am guessing it is a viscosity issue and the highest viscosity sample you have of the two is not nearly high enough. Your sample is probably too oily where the polydimethylsilxoane (PDMS) will actually rub off on your hands. To avoid this you need a much higher molecular weight (MW) sample of PDMS, that will bind the sand all together and not 'leak' out. Check out the link provided below for PDMS to see all the varieties you can purchase that differ only in MW (and perhaps MW distribution).
There is a clear relationship between the molecular weight of the PDMS and its intrinsic viscosity based on the Mark-Houwink equation [n]=KM^a. From my calculation using the data from the website link, I get intrinsic viscosity [n] = 0.00005653 x MW^0.7382 (R^2=0.9955). Therefore I estimate at 2% PDMS in 98% sand, you would likely need a MW of around 800,000 Da (Int Visc of 1.8 dl/g) for your kinetic sand to be successful.
link:
http://www.ampolymer.com/Standards/PDS.html
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Yes, reading some of the other posts now. Adding Borax (Boric acid as sodium salt) could have a similar effect as just using a higher MW PDMS provided the PDMS has free hydroxyl groups (hydroxyl terminated) since the cross-linking occurs at four closeby -OH groups.
This will in effect increase the working MW and viscosity as just using a higher MW PDMS. The key here will be getting the ratio of PDMS polymer and boric acid just right since too little will still leak oily residue out of the sand while too much will make it a hard sand mass that will have no pliability.
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Hi, I've looked online and found a pdf giving instructions on how to make the kinetic sand, link as followed (http://www.chymist.com/Kinetic%20Sand.pdf), in the pdf it says that you need to use super fine sand, and drying the sand for several hours or overnight at 120°C.
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The author's whole website is here: http://www.chymist.com/toy_store.html And it looks like its all fun.
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Hi,
You must be trying to copy the "Kinetic Sand" invented by Delta of Sweden. Please remember that the MSDS does not tell everything. Kinetic Sand is 98% sand and 2% magic, where the ‘magic’ a bonding agent that causes the sand to stick only to itself in a soft clump. The 2% magic component may be an "organic boron-crosslinked polysiloxane." Note that the patent is still pending.
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The bond(Si-O-B) is dynamic and reversible.
Please note that the key ingredient of Kinetic Sand would be polyborodimethylsiloxane (PBDMS) or polyborosiloxane (PBS) derived by a crosslinking reaction between organic boron compounds and polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS). The so-called "grab-release" mechanism of such "reversible bonds" (Si-O-B) results in the self-healing, energy absorbing, viscoelastic flow properties of silly putties and the likes. The original "Silly Putty" is based on the accidental finding by James Wright, an R&D chemical engineer, at GE in 1943! It is now commercially available from Dow Corning, Wacker, Shin-Etsu, Silikony Polskie, etc.
"Since boric acid is trifunctional, a single boron has the ability to join three polysiloxane chains together. This joining of chains is called cross-linking. Cross-linking produces a high molecular weight polymer that is a soft, pliable gum with very interesting chemical properties." (https://www.wou.edu/las/physci/ch462/BouncingPutty.htm)
Dr Phil Green at the University of Hertfordshire in Hatfield, now technical director of d3o Lab describes d3o foam material as, "An elastic cellular polymer containing transient dynamic cross links. (http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/design-engineering-features/technology/cross-links-cushion-impacts/2894/)
His further comments are:
"The material can be moulded into virtually any shape, which has enabled us to optimise the geometry for maximum conformity, flexibility and breathability for integration into garments. It can be either fabric backed for easy integration into clothing or moulded into discrete components. We currently supply a polo company, Casablanca, with moulded inserts for their polo knee protectors.
"We have a number of automotive applications we want to explore, such as suspension bushes, pillar liners and sound insulation. Although the cost is not prohibitive and will come down with volume production it is a premium material that is high value add and not a commodity sheet material, although we are looking at continuous sheet production for the near future. The raw materials are not commercially available and have been formulated to our specification.
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hi there,
has anybody of you tried some of the receipts? What was the result?
I tried mixing very fine sand and dimethicone, but this is not the right way to go - I just got an oily sand - this is no way near to the kinetic sand - it behaves like a wet sand, but makes a less mess. If you use a high viscosity dimethicone, then you will have poroblem to cover each sand particle with it - i think that this method just does not work.
I also tried to add the boric acid to the process, but I find this tricky. Boric acid is solid - i tried to dissolve it in water and then mix the oily sand with the soluition and the mix it for hours while heating it - after a long process not much happend - I still have just an oily sand - the water has evaported. I am trying to figure out how to mix dimethicone and the boric acid (make the silly putty) - do you have any ideas receipts how to make it at home? Do you dissolve the boric acid in water first ? what is the best way to dissolve the boric acid - do you heat the watter?
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Have you tried cutting the too-high viscosity dimethicone with a lower viscosity solvent which can be evaporated out?
The goal is to make a thin coating here and commonly we use some kind of carrier liquid which is then evaporated.
As for adding boron in, water isn't going to work, you generally want a solvent that can dissolve/mix with all components.
Trimethyl borate might be worth a shot and isn't hard to prepare and is at least already liquid.
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Did you find how to make kinetic sand. I tried mixing dimethacone with fine playsand. But it didn't work. I read this post just today. If anybody knows about it, please guide me. Thanks in advance.
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I want to make kinetic sand at home using dimethicone. However, with the normal beach sand with 6% of dimethicone, I couldn't make kinetic sand and it didn't show any such property of kinetic sand (binding of grain together). Could you share more information regarding how to make kinetic sand like what is the grain size of sand? Is it just dimethicone or something else needs to be added to make it kinetic sand that we can get from the market? Thankyou