Chemical Forums
Specialty Chemistry Forums => Citizen Chemist => Topic started by: marker227 on July 13, 2004, 09:22:01 PM
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Hi all. My name is Mark and I am 15. I think mixing things and making cool stuff is fun. I didn't get a class yet so I am getting started now. I want to make a smoke bomb. What I need to know is, is it safe to melt sugar to potassium nitrate? If not please provide a correct solution.
Is zinc powder dangerous?
How do you solidify powders like engine powder into a thick block?
Where can I buy sulfur and some other less dangerous chemicals?
Any other experiements I would enjoy? Thanks a lot. I also need sort of a buddy to help me so I don't burn down my house like my mom thinks. :)
Feel free to contact me anyway you'd like. I really want to learn. Beakers and tubes are so cool hehe.
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You can't melt sugar to potassium nitrate. Totalyy different substances. You can buy pure sulfur from a pharmacy or less pure sulfur from a gun shop.
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If you can't melt them together then when some instructions say "Heat pan on low and stir untill the sugar melts then mix it together to potassium nitrate. Do I melt the sugar?
Do you know what dangers zinc powder has?
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yes...just use salt peter and sugar
[edited for content]
"Quote"
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Is that hypotsesis correct? Anyone.
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I really don't know. But I'm scared of nitrates for the explosion hazard, I don't have enough to know how to play with anything with the word 'nitrate' in it. Ever burned straight sugar before? Filled my kitchen with smoke and it was a really overpowering smell. I imagine if you add sulfur to it, it'll actually stink. So why not just mix sulfur and cane sugar together and light that? The actual ratio's... well.. not to sure. I'm sure you can set up a balanced equation and figure out the proper masses for the reactants to get an optimal reaction. Others here know a lot more about the math part than I do though.
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I can get the ratio right I just don't know which chemicals are dangerous....
Like zinc powder...
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Zinc isn’t very toxic, its like a lot of other metal powders, you can handle it with your hands and stuff but don’t get it in your eyes or ingest it or inhale it or anything like that (Probably wolnt do anything to you but you can never be too sure).
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well, zinc CAN be bad for you because its fat soluble. Lets say you take too many nutritional supplements that are heavy in zinc... you can get zinc poisoning. Some cases you might even die. But handling it should be fine, just don't eat or sniff it.
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oh ok because on this site I saw that it was really harmful and very flammable and combustable... but on this book I got thats a catolog it said it was "slight" chance of flammability.
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just dont throw a match in it!
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yeah until it's ready to be lit.
Does anyone know how to make to powders mix then get solid?
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for safety information check here http://www.ehs.ucr.edu/msds/default.htm
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You really need to go to the usenet newsgroup rec.pyrotechnics. Go to google groups and find it there. These questions have already been answered if you search through past posts on that group, but I'll give you a quick answer to most of them now anyway:
>I want to make a smoke bomb. What I need to know is, is it safe to melt sugar >to potassium nitrate? If not please provide a correct solution.
Not really. It's one of those things that you can do several times with no problems, then one time, it will get out of control. Especially around open flame, this is inviting disaster. If you do make smoke bombs, make sure that you use them in small (less than 10g) batches when making them, and don't melt them together. Room temperature mixed KNO33 and sugar works just fine. Don't grind the oxidizer (potassium nitrate) with the sugar together in a mortar or anything, just mix them together on a piece of paper by rocking them back and forth. That works very well.
>Is zinc powder dangerous?
Yes. Zinc is amphoteric (capable of being both a base and an acid) and as such, if mixed with nitrates, can cause a runaway reaction unless precatuions are taken to include chemicals to slightly, but not strongly, acidify the material that you're working with. Zinc is very reactive, and burns with a very hot flame. Although you may have no troubles with it and might not even get it lit in some cases, if it does get lit, and it might spontaneously, even mixed with some rather benign chemicals, you won't be able to put it out.
>How do you solidify powders like engine powder into a thick block?
Engine powder? I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with it.
>Where can I buy sulfur and some other less dangerous chemicals?
I would take a course in chemistry before trying to go get chemicals to mix them together. Alternatively, if you're just interested in pyrotechnics, search out a local pyrotechnics club. Hopefully you don't live in a lame state like California or Maryland where those fireworks are all but illegal.
>Any other experiements I would enjoy? Thanks a lot. I also need sort of a buddy >to help me so I don't burn down my house like my mom thinks.
Honestly, I would try a few things like exchange of iron with copper ions, etc. There are some very interesting chemistry experiments that are decently safe out there. I'd also have a lot of fun making large blue crystals of copper (II) sulfate.
BTW, I've edited your formula out of the thread; we generally don't post formula for pyrotechnic-type devices on this newsgroup.
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Don't be reading s#*$ from the anarchist's cookbook os similar crapbooks, 99.99% of the stuff in them is K3W1 bulls&$# and will more likely than not get you killed, read up on some serious pyrotechnics, and get yourself a proper grounding in at least basic chemistry.
As for rocket engine powder, I believe the grains are formed by dampening the powder with a quick drying solvent like ether, and then casting the grains in a mould.
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Personally, I wouldn't use ether as a quick drying solvent. It tends to form peroxides upon evaporation. I would choose something like acetone. However, I am not wholly sure that a quick-drying solvent gives the best grains. I think that some of those fuels use a corning process, but don't quote me on that.
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Ether peroxides are nasty so I have heard, or at least when they are blowing up a bottle of ether in your face ;D but I think making ether peroxides in safe conditions would be an interesting idea, I assume an acid catalysed H2O2 reaction would suffice?
I wonder how the VOD would change with the complexity of the alcohol the ether was derived from, and how halogen groups would chamge the VOD/stability?
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Novices attempting to make explosives is a very bad decision. When I begin an explosives project at home(which has only been one) I do an exorbient amount of research on it, more than just what I find on the internet. A BS in Chemistry lets you be able to tap other resources for knowledge on these topics. I can't stress how much every factor is thought through. If you want to make explosives or fireworks wait until your in college and have AT LEAST freshman college chemistry under your belt. While in high school there are still many other much more safer chemical phonomena to investigate.
For those I can't sway away from these dangerous experiments I refer you to http://nobombs.net/brucel/explosiveintro.html .
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I wasn't actually interested in synthesizing ether peroxides, more just interested in the theory becind them, I have very little diethyl ether left, and that needs purifying somewhat when I get my distillation glassware ;D (and yes I know distilling ether is dangerous :))
I may actually try this one, but make no more than a few hundred mg at a time until I have at least some idea of the properties of the peroxides (and in the case of diethyl ether peroxide I don't WANT to make more than 250 mg at a time ;D
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I wasn't actually interested in synthesizing ether peroxides, more just interested in the theory becind them, I have very little diethyl ether left, and that needs purifying somewhat when I get my distillation glassware ;D (and yes I know distilling ether is dangerous :))
I may actually try this one, but make no more than a few hundred mg at a time until I have at least some idea of the properties of the peroxides (and in the case of diethyl ether peroxide I don't WANT to make more than 250 mg at a time ;D
If you have only a little bit of ether left and it's "in need of purification," throw it away. Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT attempt to purify it. Even professionals won't purify diethyl ether that is "old." They'll just decompose it and buy new stuff. Old ether has a lot of dissolved peroxides in it, and the act of distillation would be like saying that you'll defuse a bomb by putting it in a smelting oven in order to open the case.
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Hmmmm...might make interesting target practice for my air rifle then ;D
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never distill ether :nono2:
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Well if the ether is new it shouldn't be a problem, for instance you need bloody pure dry ether for grignards.
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I know. its not bad. I am going to use Tettaniumtetro Chloride instead any idea where to get it?
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Well if the ether is new it shouldn't be a problem, for instance you need bloody pure dry ether for grignards.
Even if the ether is new, as soon as it is exposed to oxygen it will start to form peroxides. If you can distill it in an argon dry box, and it's brand spanking new, then maybe it would be a little less dangerous. Still, you'd have to be loony to distill diethyl ether. ;D
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Thats just the problem Jdurg, I am a loony ;D
Gives me the advantage of not worrying too much with my experiments after the safety precautions are in place tho :)
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Don't be an idiot--I don't mean that offensively, just for your own safety. Organic peroxides are incredibly powerful and unstable. 100mg can blow your fingertips off. Not kidding. It is easily enough for critical mass, which means it can detonate. 250mg is not very smart, honestly. I wouldn't try making diethyl ether peroxide at all, personally. I have made other peroxides before, although in very small quantities, with appropriate safety equipment. You have to realize that I have the proper experience in handling these materials, so that's a far cry from screwing around with them in your backyard. There's another thread on peroxides floating around on the forums somewhere; you should read it because there's some discussion on the peroxides themselves, etc.
As for your Vdet question, it's related to the density of the material. If you can pack the material at a higher density, you can get a greater Vdet out of it. That's just based on experimental observation and explains why explosives that are loosely heaped don't explode with as great a velocity of detonation as those that are packed densely. (This is not the case for ammonium nitrate, but that is for different reasons). Anyway, if the structure allows you to get a more dense crystal packing in the crystal structure, then a pure single crystal will have a higher Vdet. Hope that answers your question.