Chemical Forums
Specialty Chemistry Forums => Citizen Chemist => Topic started by: P-man on April 20, 2006, 08:08:47 PM
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Is it possible to create Na from NaCO3? Is it relatively simple and/or doesn't use very complicated unfindable chemicals? If not, can you get NaO relatively easily?
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Na2O, Na2CO3.
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With sufficient heating, Na2CO3 will decompose to Na2O + CO2.
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Is it possible to create Na from NaCO3?
You could heat Na2CO3 and then reduce the oxide with hydrogen (Na2O + H2 ---> 2 Na0 + H2O )
Edit: equation balanced
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No, that is not possible. Forget about reduction with hydrogen. It is the other way around. Water reacts violently with sodium metal, giving hydrogen.
P-man, forget about making sodium metal at home. It is ridiculously difficult and insanely dangerous. It can be done, but it requires very good equipment and very good skills, also from a point of view of safety. Only few home chemists can do this safely. I do not count myself as a member of these few home chemists. I would never try to make this at home.
If you really want Na-metal, then first study its properties very well. Think about how you want to store it and how you are going to handle the risks involved. Then look around at some element sellers and see if you can purchase some. But at first I would say. Don't play around with sodium. I myself have done a lot of experiments with extreme chemicals, but I only did one experiment with sodium. It simply is too extreme to work with comfortably.
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it's fairly easy to electrolyses out of salt, but you need an inert atmosphere. When i did it i was very sad as little blurbs of orange flame shrank and slowly went out. i tried to throw some mineral oil on the salt, but it just lit on fire, gave of horrible smoke, and made a terrible mess. Unless you have a furnace or something hotter or bigger than a propane torch it probably wont work.
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What about NaO?
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What about NaO?
You were told several times - there is no such compound.
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You were told several times - there is no such compound.
I was?
Anyways I had some very interesting theoretical experiments doing this... and some research was invilved as well. With NaCO3 I tried to find some answers:
NaCO3 + H2SO4 --> NaHSO4 + HCO3- (What happens to the HCO3 anion?)
NaCO3 + HCl --> NaOH + Cl + CO2 (I am not at all sure about this one. I had to re-do it a couple of times and I still don't know.)
NaCO3 + H2O2 --> NaCO + H2O (This one I am pleased with, but I'm probably not right.)
Then with CuSO4 I wanted to see if I could isolate the Cu:
CuSO4 + H2SO4--> CuO2 + S2O4 + H2O2 (A lot of guessing work. Not at all sure on this one.)
CuSO4 + 2HCl --> CuCl2 + H2SO4 (This one took a lot of re-doing as well and I have no clue about it.)
CuSO4 + H2O2 --> Cu + H2SO6 (This one I think I might have found my goal, but once again it's scrappy.)
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NaCO3 + H2SO4 --> NaHSO4 + HCO3- (What happens to the HCO3 anion?)
Since sulfuric acid is pretty strong the hydrogen carbonate is protonated to carbonic acid (And carbonic acid decomposes in carbon dioxide and water...)
NaCO3 + HCl --> NaOH + Cl + CO2 (I am not at all sure about this one. I had to re-do it a couple of times and I still don't know.)
Nope...again, the strong acid HCl protonates the carbonate anion... ?CO2+H2O
NaCO3 + H2O2 --> NaCO + H2O (This one I am pleased with, but I'm probably not right.)
..I don't think that this reaction happens..
The reactions with copper sulfate: Nothing happens if you add Copper sulfate to sulfuric acid.
The second one seems to be correct, although it's an equilibrium since the formed sulfuric acid re-protonates the chloride anion.
The third one: I doubt that H2SO6 exists....
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You were told several times - there is no such compound.
I was?
Yes. Read my FIRST answer in this thread.
Anyways I had some very interesting theoretical experiments doing this... and some research was invilved as well. With NaCO3 I tried to find some answers:
NaCO3 + H2SO4 --> NaHSO4 + HCO3- (What happens to the HCO3 anion?)
NaCO3 + HCl --> NaOH + Cl + CO2 (I am not at all sure about this one. I had to re-do it a couple of times and I still don't know.)
NaCO3 + H2O2 --> NaCO + H2O (This one I am pleased with, but I'm probably not right.)
All wrong for the reason given above.
Then with CuSO4 I wanted to see if I could isolate the Cu:
CuSO4 + H2SO4--> CuO2 + S2O4 + H2O2 (A lot of guessing work. Not at all sure on this one.)
CuSO4 + H2O2 --> Cu + H2SO6 (This one I think I might have found my goal, but once again it's scrappy.)
All the time you are trying to guess what the chemistry is all about instead of taking a book and reading. Not every combination of atoms is a stable particle, not every combination of reactants and products is a possible chemical reaction.
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Concerning NaO- it is stoichiometric unit of Na2O2
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Now, now, no need for profanity, Borek! :)
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I ACTUALLY DID USE A BOOK TO DO SOME RESEARCH THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I'm still not very advanced. Wait 'till I'm in High School, then I should understand better.
So in the NaCO3 reactions with H2SO4 and HCl the acid is too strong and ends up protonating the carbonate. What does that mean?
Why doesn't the NaCO3 + H2O2 reaction not happen? I read somewhere that H2O2 usually will just give off its extra O atom and become water, so that is what I did...
I am happy that I got one of them almost correct. However, why does CuSO4 not react with H2SO4? Is it because two sulphates cannot react with each other?
H2SO6... I will research that one.
Oh, and thanks Borek, for underlining the fact that not all the time a reaction happens. But right now, I do not have the knowledge of when or not a rection would occur. That is why I turn to you guys for help.
Thanks everyone,
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NaCO3 does not exist!
H2SO6 does not exist!
NaO does not exist! Na2O2 does exist, but that is something totally different. If you would not want to distinguish between NaO and Na2O2, then you would write hydrogenperoxide as HO. The compound HO, however, also exists, it is called hydroxyl. This is an extremely reactive compound and only exists in a transient state as reaction intermediate or at very strong dilutions where it cannot interact with other molecules (e.g. in interstellar gases).
First read something about number of bonds of atoms and about oxidation states. Then you'll easily understand why these compounds do not exist at all or are extremely unstable.
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Reading up on polyatomic ions may be helpful also. I also have to agree with the other people about H2SO6 existing. I'm not sure at all if it exists. H2SO4 on the hand does.
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Thanks woelen. That saved me a lot of research. So number of bonds per atom would be good to read on/research?
And, in the long run, what reactions happened and how did they?
Chemical formula for carbonic acid?
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H2SO6 could have been a typo, for H2SO5, peroxymonosulfuric acid, which definately does exist, had a couple of close scrapes with the stuff myself, or, H2S2O6, dithionic acid, which is stable only in solution, or as dithionite salts.
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Thanks for that, limpet. It definetly was not a typo but now that I know that those ARE compounds then I will rethink the reactions. However, I think I have gotten enough feedback to see that that reaction would not happen.
Thanks.
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Thanks for that, limpet. It definetly was not a typo but now that I know that those ARE compounds then I will rethink the reactions. However, I think I have gotten enough feedback to see that that reaction would not happen.
Thanks.
H2SO6 so far is a typo, but students should train a chemical nomenclature also for the future compounds.
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When you say NaCO3 do you mean NaHCO3?
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"NaCO3" was corrected a few times during this discussion, treating it as a typo we should mean Na2CO3
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I still think he means NaHCO3
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Nope. Na2CO3 is what I meant, sodium carbonate, not sodium hydrogen carbonate.
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Back to the origional subject, i doubt you need the sodium or sodium peroxide for any complicated scientific use other than throwing it in some water and haveing it explode in your face. I recomend potassium, though doubt you will be able to make any for the use above. You could always just try a couple of these formulas for "wet start fire" 5 amonium nitrate/3 zinc powder/1 ammonium chloride. or parts each of a reactive metal powder (aluminium, zinc, magnesium) and iodine powder.
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H2SO6 is peroxydisulfuric acid.
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H2SO6 is peroxydisulfuric acid.
diperoxysulfuric acid
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H2SO6 does not exist.
H2SO5 is Caro's acid, also called peroxysulfuric acid.
H2S2O8 is persulphuric acid, also called peroxydisulfuric acid.
Salts of both of these acids exist. The salts of H2SO5 are very unstable though and are not available commericially. The salts of H2S2O8 are very common. All three of K2S2O8, Na2S2O8 and (NH4)2S2O8 can be purchased commercially. Most electronics part stores sell at least one of these salts as a PCB etching compound, and it can be used as a cleaner alternative for ferric chloride.
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i posted this earlier today under another topic but it will help you make sodium in small amounts
...just take a lithium battery remove the 1 foot long strip of lithium metal from inside it....you have to open it and becareful not to let the strip of lithium and the strip of iron sulfide touch or eles you get alot of heat and the lithium might ignite...just peal the outer casing off using needle nose pliers (sp?) after you get the lithium out just wrap some lithium around some sodium chloride and ignite it , it will flare up and strip the cl of the na and you will see this orange glow coming from underneath the now lithium oxide/chloride/nitride wrap once you see that, or when part of the wrap melts off ..just throw it or let it drip into the mineral oil... after it cools remove the black chared remains and you can then take the little bulbs of sodium and flatten them into strips and put them back into the oil....it obviously also works with k , mg ,ca, and any other metal....even cs....but i wouldnt try to get cs from cscl in this way as that would be a death wish... calcium from caocl powder makes very nice marble sized lumps of calcium and it can be used to make alloys such as NaK ..ive also made NaK this way
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Chemical formula for carbonic acid?
H2CO3
Personally I think it is a bad Idea for you to extract elemental sodium from anything. If you are truely interested in using some go to your local high school and talk to one of the chemistry teachers there. Most would be thrilled to have a student or potential student interested in the chemistry field. Don't be offended I think that every one is looking out for your well being :D
Best of Luck to you :)