Chemical Forums
Chemistry Forums for Students => Undergraduate General Chemistry Forum => Topic started by: P-man on May 16, 2006, 06:11:52 PM
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I am learning, on my own, with the help of textbooks kindly given to me at Christmas by my grandfather and my own experimenting, some more advanced chemistry than what I studied in Grade Seven. Partly as preparation for High School, and partly for my own knowledge. However, I ran across some reactions that need clarifying.
Through frequent observation, I noticed that HCl likes to form chlorides. So is this equation correct?
CuSO4 + 2HCl --> CuCl2 + H2SO4
Although I found it unlikely that it would form sulphuric acid, I could not find another spot to put the SO4, which I know cannot exist as a free compound.
The second puzzlement in my going-ons was that sulphuric acid usually reacts with metal carbonates to form sulphates, am I not correct? For example, they usually ended up something like this, right:
H2SO4 + CuCO3 --> CuSO4 + CO2 + H2O
Originally I found some weird ionic compound but then I realized that this broken down form would work better. However, until I do it, I have no way to prove that metal carbonates react in this way with sulphuric acid.
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regarding the first equation, H2SO4 is a strong acid so in solution it dissociates approximately 100%. For this reason, the formation of H2SO4 seems highly unlikely to me. It could, however, form HSO4 which is a weak acid and would therefore be an equilibrium reaction. You should be able to derive the equations from this if you feel inclined to do so.
The second equation seems fine to me but I would get confirmation from someone else before trusting that it is right.
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I thought it unlikely, but I didn't know how to change it, V.
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regarding the first equation, H2SO4 is a strong acid so in solution it dissociates approximately 100%. For this reason, the formation of H2SO4 seems highly unlikely to me. It could, however, form HSO4 which is a weak acid and would therefore be an equilibrium reaction. You should be able to derive the equations from this if you feel inclined to do so.
The second equation seems fine to me but I would get confirmation from someone else before trusting that it is right.
the second is right. the H2SO4 will form, but that almost always will break down to make CO2 and H2O
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the H2SO4 will form, but that almost always will break down to make CO2 and H2O
???
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the second is right. the H2SO4 will form, but that almost always will break down to make CO2 and H2O
that's why i threw in a disclaimer by using the word approximately before i said 100%
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the H2SO4 will form, but that almost always will break down to make CO2 and H2O
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what's confusing you about that? doesn't H2SO4 form and then most of the time break down?
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the second is right. the H2SO4 will form, but that almost always will break down to make CO2 and H2O
wth are you talking about? H2SO4 will not break down to form CO2 and water.
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oh wait!! i didn't read correctly again sorry!! i was thinking of H2CO3. H2SO4 won't.
the second is right. the H2SO4 will form, but that almost always will break down to make CO2 and H2O
i meant H2CO3 where it shows H2SO4, sorry about that
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oh wait!! i didn't read correctly again sorry!! i was thinking of H2CO3. H2SO4 won't.
the second is right. the H2SO4 will form, but that almost always will break down to make CO2 and H2O
i meant H2CO3 where it shows H2SO4, sorry about that
lol, i misread it the same way you did so it all made sense to me too
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good i don't feel so bad about my typo now :-[ lol
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So then is it right? Because I don't see how HCO3 would form when there are no carbon atoms around. Anyways, is the second one right? Is this typically what happens when sulphates and carbonates mix?
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the first equation is unlikely like stated above the the second seems totally correct to me and the talk about the HCO3 was just an example not pertaining to your question in the first reaction
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The first reaction: an aquoeus solution with the H2SO4 dissolving into H2O and SO3-?
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Through frequent observation, I noticed that HCl likes to form chlorides. So is this equation correct?
CuSO4 + 2HCl --> CuCl2 + H2SO4
Although I found it unlikely that it would form sulphuric acid, I could not find another spot to put the SO4, which I know cannot exist as a free compound.
This equation doesn't look like it is very possible not the other in the previous post
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The second equation looks fine to me. For the first one, it's kind of arbitrary to write an equation like that. At the level you've gotten into chemistry you probably haven't been introduced to net ionic equations, so here you go ;D Net ionic equations show only the species that undergo state changes or are created or destroyed. So, going to the first equation, all 4 of the compounds you've shown will be highly soluble in water, so everything dissociates and is happy being in solution. Therefore, adding copper sulfate to hydrochloric acid has no net effect. The catch here is that the HSO4- ion is not a "strong acid", so it will not completely dissociate, and this could alter things a bit.
Perhaps this will better illustrate what I'm trying to say (I don't think i'm doing so hot so far)
Also, let's assume sulfuric acid is a "strong" diprotic acid (both protons completely dissociate) and the same for HCl (only 1 proton)
Reactants:
Cu2+ + SO42-+ 2 H+ + 2 Cl-
Products:
Cu2+ + 2 Cl- + 2 H+ + SO42-
Every single ionic species we start off with, we end up with the same exact thing in the end. Although in our equation we wrote them as if certain ions are bonded to other ions, in actuallity everything is just floating around, so we can't really say what is with what.
A link for your enjoyment :)
http://www.towson.edu/~ladon/netionic.html
As to your question about "what happens when sulfates and carbonates mix", the production of carbon dioxide is a property of the carbonate ion. Adding an acid to carbonate salts causes them to gain protons, thus creating H2CO3 (carbonic acid), which then rapidly decomposes into water and carbon dioxide.
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Aha, that makes it clearer. So the H2SO4 would become a muddle of ions in a solution. What would the ionic equation look like?
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since H2SO4 undergoes (near) complete dissociation, what does it contain in the first place? no chemical reactions, but just seperation of its original ions
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So we have a muddle of ions in a solution... very exciting! Well now this is all cleared up. No more wondering, thanks to you guyses. Time to fulfill the first equation...