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Specialty Chemistry Forums => Chemical Education and Careers => Topic started by: Borek on May 23, 2006, 07:18:28 AM

Title: is it possible to make PhD in UK without making MSc first?
Post by: Borek on May 23, 2006, 07:18:28 AM
Dan, is it possible to make PhD in UK without making MSc first?

In Poland MSc is a prerequisite, I was told in US MSc are mostly graduate program dropouts.
Title: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: Dan on May 23, 2006, 07:41:43 AM
Dan, is it possible to make PhD in UK without making MSc first?

In Poland MSc is a prerequisite, I was told in US MSc are mostly graduate program dropouts.

As far as I know, a Master's degree (or some international equivalent) is a prerequisite for PhD/DPhil study in the UK. For Chemistry anyway.

Do you mean someone in the USA told you UK MSc's were a sign of graduate drop-outs, or that MSc's gained in the USA were a sign of graduate drop-outs?

If someone has an MSc it doesn't necessarily mean they dropped out of their PhD. PhD dropouts would have an MSc, but that doesn't mean they ever went for a PhD. At some universities, eg. Oxford, you cannot get a BSc in chemistry, a 4 year MChem is mandatory.

All I know about the US is this:

I'm doing a 4 year course, which will give me an MChem (provided I don't fail). Now, if I wanted to do a PhD in America I would also have to spend another year getting an american master's degree! This is supposedly because in America, it takes 5 years to get a masters, which everyone one in the UK attributes to poor university education in the USA - but I'm not in any position to comment on the degree of truth in that statement.

So I think for american PhDs you have to do an extra year in america before you start your PhD.
 
My Inorganic tutor did this - he had to do the extra year even though he discovered something new and awesome when he did his MChem research year, I can't remember what it was, solids don't get me very excited, but he got full marks for his thesis!
Title: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: Borek on May 23, 2006, 07:48:11 AM
MSc's gained in the USA were a sign of graduate drop-outs?

In general US graduate studies end with PhD, ar at least that's the idea. If you fail, you may get MSc.

But that's what I have heard somewhere on the net, so it can be wrong, prejudiced or something.
Title: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: Dan on May 23, 2006, 07:52:54 AM
prejudiced

Probably - at least if he Americans are as prejudiced towards us as we (generally) are of them!
Title: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: P on May 23, 2006, 09:15:45 AM
Dan, is it possible to make PhD in UK without making MSc first?

In Poland MSc is a prerequisite, I was told in US MSc are mostly graduate program dropouts.

You can get onto a course if you have a good BSc.  Some start by undertaking a MSc and converting to a doctorate if the project goes in the right direction.    If you 'fail' your Ph.D. or if it doesn't quite go to plan shall we say, then they give you an MPhil.  A MSc is a respected course as far as I know.


That was the last "signifigant" stage before you get a PhD. I still need to work in lab a few more years and write a dissertation, but these are the easy things compared to this oral exam.

Thats different to here in the UK  -  we do the 3 year lab work, write the thesis and then do an oral exam  -  If you come out of the oral alive then you pass. 


Congrats.





Title: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: Equi on May 23, 2006, 06:11:26 PM
Now that we are discussing about PhDs: I recently finished my exams and want to start applications in the states. Any useful hints on how to succeed in the GRE exams?
Title: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: Donaldson Tan on May 23, 2006, 07:51:59 PM
Now that we are discussing about PhDs: I recently finished my exams and want to start applications in the states. Any useful hints on how to succeed in the GRE exams?

Do our UK undergraduate MEng and MSc qualify for direct entry into American PhD programs?

I am sure they are called intercalculated masters for a reason..
Title: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: mike on May 23, 2006, 08:18:11 PM
Quote
In general US graduate studies end with PhD, ar at least that's the idea. If you fail, you may get MSc.

But that's what I have heard somewhere on the net, so it can be wrong, prejudiced or something.

Borek: Don't be too quick to judge! Failure is not the only reason people leave studies..
Title: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: Donaldson Tan on May 23, 2006, 09:05:30 PM
My Inorganic tutor did this - he had to do the extra year even though he discovered something new and awesome when he did his MChem research year, I can't remember what it was, solids don't get me very excited, but he got full marks for his thesis!

One more year? So it means UK graduates are better off (time-wise) to do PhD in the UK & Europe?
Title: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: mike on May 23, 2006, 09:13:15 PM
Australia: PhD = 3 years, MSc= 1.5-2 years, BSc = 3 years, honours = 1 year

To get your PhD you need to do BSc + Honours + PhD
Title: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: Equi on May 24, 2006, 06:21:01 AM
Do our UK undergraduate MEng and MSc qualify for direct entry into American PhD programs?

I am sure they are called intercalculated masters for a reason..
Actually, even BSc with honours qualify for an american PhD. The honours is essentially, i.e. you need to pass 11 out of 12 course units within the 3 years. However, you probably won't get a place without a very good second upper or first class degree.
Title: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: Dan on May 24, 2006, 07:05:17 AM
One more year? So it means UK graduates are better off (time-wise) to do PhD in the UK & Europe?

As far as I know, yes. But I don't know alot about it, so I think this will be my last post in this thread.

As I understand it, if you have an MChem, your PhD will take x years in the UK. If you go to America it will take x+1 years. The additional year is supposedy for american students to 'catch-up' and meet the standard required to begin PhD study - and UK students can't skip that year, which they moan about because they are supposedly  so much better educated blah blah blah.

Title: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: DrCMS on May 25, 2006, 05:13:59 AM
You did not need to get an MSc to do a PhD in the UK when I got mine 11 years ago. 
To get goverment funding you needed to get a BSc with either a 1st or 2.1 grade.
If you had the money you could fund yourself with a lower degree but the odds are if you didn't get a 1st or 2.1 you wouldn't pass the PhD.  Unless you missed thing through illness or personal problems etc.

Back then we had to write a mini thesis at the end of the 1st year and had an oral exam with your supervisor and another lecturer/professor from the same department. 

If you passed that you carried on for another 2 years or so and then wrote up your full thesis followed by an oral exam by a lecturer/professor from another university who is an expert in the field you had studied along with a lecturer/professor from your own university department.  They can quiz you on anything they want; mainly stuff in your thesis but anything else they feel like, analytical techniques you've quoted results from, recent literature published after you wrote up etc. etc.  My exam lasted about 2½ hours which was fairly typical.  Once you passed that you're a PhD.

Writing up my thesis took about 5 months of 10 hour days 7 days a week and as jdurg said it is not easy.  Once you start putting it down on paper you have to tidy up all the loose ends and have the answers ready for the oral exam.

So what is the timescale and process in the rest of the world?
Title: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: hmx9123 on June 02, 2006, 04:37:55 PM
To the best of my understanding:

The way things used to work here in the US was this:

BS - 4 years
MS - 2 years
PhD - 3 years

You had to do these sequentally.  More recently (past 20 years or so), certain universities started combining the Masters/PhD program.  So, now it's more like this at many places:

BS - 4 years
PhD - 5 years

This was supposedly done for financial reasons.  Apparently professors get more money from the university for PhD students than for masters students.  While students aren't technically PhD candidates until after they pass their qualifying exams, if they state that they're going for their PhD, then on paper, they fall into the PhD category and the prof gets more money.  This isn't the way it's done at all universities here; some still have the old system that requires them to get a MS first.

Now, that being said, you can still get a MS from universities that only offer a PhD program--you have to quit the PhD program before you get your PhD, or in some cases, you can write up a thesis for an MS, they give you that, and then you move on to the PhD.
Title: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: Borek on June 02, 2006, 05:40:47 PM
Now, that being said, you can still get a MS from universities that only offer a PhD program--you have to quit the PhD program before you get your PhD, or in some cases, you can write up a thesis for an MS, they give you that, and then you move on to the PhD.

In a way that confirms that MSc can be a PhD dropout.
Title: Re: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: Mitch on June 02, 2006, 06:13:18 PM
Sure, using the term "drop-out" loosely.
Title: Re: Re: I am now a PhD Candidate!
Post by: Donaldson Tan on June 02, 2006, 07:07:06 PM
Sure, using the term "drop-out" loosely.

There are many reasons to drop-out. Not faring academically well may be one of them, but I am sure it's not the only reason why people drop out from PhD programs. However, the term drop-out has a damnation aspect in it, so I would refrain from using it.
Title: Re: is it possible to make PhD in UK without making MSc first?
Post by: mike on June 02, 2006, 10:43:07 PM
Quote
In a way that confirms that MSc can be a PhD dropout.

Borek: Are you deliberately trying to p*** me off? :(

Where and when did you do your PhD?

You have the right to call me a drop out and judge me or whatever, but I don't have to like it ;)
Title: Re: is it possible to make PhD in UK without making MSc first?
Post by: Borek on June 03, 2006, 04:06:21 AM
Quote
In a way that confirms that MSc can be a PhD dropout.

Borek: Are you deliberately trying to p*** me off? :(

No :) I was told several months ago that most MSc in US are PhD program dropouts, please read earlier posts. Also note what I have already stated on May 23rd (http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=8897.msg41179#msg41179).

Quote
Where and when did you do your PhD?

Read "Introduce yourself" thread. I am dropout myself.

Quote
You have the right to call me a drop out and judge me or whatever, but I don't have to like it ;)

Never planned to call anyone dropout (perhaps with excpetion for myself), I just wanted to clarify situation. I know that in some places MSc is a prerequisite to PhD, while in others it is not. I have also heard that in US graduate studies are generally aimed at PhD, not MSc, and MSc is not a prerequisite - if so, where do the US MSc come from? Looks like I was partially wrong (you can aim at MSc in US graduate programs) and partially right (see hmx post). That's all.
Title: Re: is it possible to make PhD in UK without making MSc first?
Post by: hmx9123 on June 03, 2006, 05:04:24 AM
Well, dropout is a little better than 'fail out' which is something you previously stated.  Your information about 'most US graduate students being PhD dropouts' is incorrect; it is a very unfair and wholly unsubstantiated statement.  That would completely depend on the university.  Here at Berkeley, that may be correct; at a university where you have to get an MS first, though, it is decidedly incorrect.  You can get an MS if you aim for it, and you can get it if you leave your PhD program early for whatever reason.  Like I said before, though, you can sometimes write up a MS thesis and get an MS even if you're in the PhD program; I had a friend at Illinois who did this.  Their program there is only PhD, but he took his first two years of work and wrote up a thesis, which gave him an MS.  He then continued and got his PhD--he simply wanted the MS for whatever reason.  So, does that make him a PhD dropout?  Not at all.

Some programs here give you a BS and an MS after 4 years; I have two friends here in graduate school with MSs from their 'undergraduate' days.  They still had to go through the 5 year PhD program, though, as Berkeley didn't honor their MS (because they wanted more money--it had nothing to do with their degrees).  Honestly, what it all really boils down to is money.  In chemistry, an MS is somewhat of an anomaly because it is treated so differently from university to university, at least here in the US.  A BS is fairly standard, and the PhD seems to be standard all over the world, but the MS varies a lot from place to place.  Some countries don't even have an MS and have other names for their degrees.
Title: Re: is it possible to make PhD in UK without making MSc first?
Post by: Borek on June 03, 2006, 06:21:12 AM
Thanks for the explanation. Just in case: thats where it all started: sci.chem post  bymuha,  Apr 10 2005 6:59 am) (http://groups.google.com/group/sci.chem/browse_frm/thread/49f6debbf4939ecc/929f7ddb90c2e369?tvc=1&q=PhD+dropout+group%3Asci.chem#929f7ddb90c2e369).

Note I have never stated I believe it is 100% correct and true statement, I just wanted to clarify things for myself. If I sounded offensive for anybody - I appologize :)
Title: Re: is it possible to make PhD in UK without making MSc first?
Post by: Equi on June 03, 2006, 06:09:12 PM
Like I said before, though, you can sometimes write up a MS thesis and get an MS even if you're in the PhD program; I had a friend at Illinois who did this.  Their program there is only PhD, but he took his first two years of work and wrote up a thesis, which gave him an MS.  He then continued and got his PhD--he simply wanted the MS for whatever reason.  So, does that make him a PhD dropout?  Not at all.
Sounds like a cheap way to obtain a master degree. What are the average tuition fees again? ;D
Title: Re: is it possible to make PhD in UK without making MSc first?
Post by: hmx9123 on June 05, 2006, 05:24:07 PM
Really, it's not any cheaper than getting an MS.  If you get an MS, you have to pay for 2 years of grad school, then 3 of PhD.  If you get a PhD, you have to pay for 5 years of grad school.  Since 2+3 = 5 and you only need 2 for a MS in either case, it's still 2 years of tuition.
Title: Re: is it possible to make PhD in UK without making MSc first?
Post by: Baseball_Fan on June 17, 2006, 10:55:07 PM
I'm in the USA. I've been looking at many university handbooks, and this is what they all say-

A B.S. or B.A. is a 120 semester hour, 4 year undergraduate degree.

A Masters is a 30 semester hour, 1-2 year graduate degree. Many masters degrees are terminal. Many of the universities I looked at that do NOT offer a PhD do offer a MS or MA. Where I live, there are 4 universities within 60 miles. 1 of them is a state school with a MS and PhD option in chemistry. The other 3 universities only offer MS in chemistry, and if the student wants more, they have no choice but to continue elsewhere.

What I am getting at is many people get a masters degree so they can have a graduate degree. A masters might be worth more money at work than just a BS. A masters will also give an advantage when looking for a job, compared with people who only have a BS.

If I can get enough money to pay for school, I would like to go and get a BS then a MS. I'm 30 years old, and I doubt I could take 8 years of study to get a PhD. I'd be 40 before I'd start making money. I would like to have a normal life with a house, and those extra 3 years of working would mean I'd be closer to those goals. Even if the difference between a MS and PhD is $55,000/year compared to $70,000/year, life is finite and I'd rather have the 165,000 now and enjoy it, than have the difference trickle in.

I'm sure those PhD students who accepted a MS early probably had a good reason. Maybe they got married and had a child and wanted to work. Or maybe they did not like the university they were at. I'm sure there are thousands of reasons why someone might preffer a MS to a PhD.