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Specialty Chemistry Forums => Citizen Chemist => Topic started by: CGB_Spender on June 21, 2006, 05:17:20 AM

Title: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: CGB_Spender on June 21, 2006, 05:17:20 AM
Whats your opinion for the selling of some elements as Uranium, Cobalt, Cesium, Berillium e.tc? Do you believe that they must be prohibeted at all or not? Maybe element sales look like <<innocent>>, but what about if these elements go to the wrong hands? Go to the hands of some guys that are not collectors but terrorists? I know that maybe you think that this is just a far away senario, but its still a possible senario.  ;) We live in a world that terrorists and possible terrorists live with us too. Personally, i dont agree with these sales. Many elements, can be used for the creation of a ''Dirty bomb'' or even for the creation of an ATOMIC BOMB. If i was a collector,(And i think to start) i would probably buy some of these, as Cobalt or Cesium or even Uranium, BUT i am NOT a terrorist. However nobody can be sure about all the people that wants to buy for a collection. Maybe some are saying that are collectors but they are terrorists in reallity.  ;) I believe that some elements must be prohibeted from the pubic. Especially U-238, Thorium, Cobalt that can be very dangerous in the wrong hands. Whats your opinion friends?     
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: pantone159 on June 21, 2006, 09:18:53 AM
Cobalt??!

I think you might be confusing normal cobalt with the radioactive isotopes of cobalt (which are indeed very dangerous).  The normal stuff is not dangerous (as the bulk metal, anyways).  Element vendors aren't selling the radioactive isotope!

A similar comment applies to cesium.  There is a well-known radioactive isotope, but normal cesium is completely unradioactive.  The metal is very reactive and indeed dangerous to handle, but I can't see a terrorist finding it useful.  (For example, a pistol is surely a much more capable instrument for hurting people, and is much easier to get and perhaps cheaper.)

Normal uranium is not used in making atomic bombs.  You have to separate the U-235 (0.7%) from the main U-238 (which is not particularly dangerous), and this takes billions of dollars worth of industrial plants as well as tonnes of natural uranium to start with. 
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: CGB_Spender on June 21, 2006, 01:52:17 PM
You didn't understand me. When i mention Cobalt, i mean that someone can buy Co-59, and convert it into Co-60. Someone can buy U-238 and yield Pu-239, someone can buy Beryllium and use it as a source of neutrons and do the same with Polonium. Someone can take Cesium and make it radioactive from 132 to 133 (If i remember correctly). What i mean is that they can buy <<innocent>> elements and make them VERY DANGEROUS. You don't need very sophisticated labs for doing it. You can easily buy protective uniforms and everything you need for this <<project>>. I am not saying that it's easy, but it is definitely not impossible.  ;)


 ;D
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: pantone159 on June 22, 2006, 12:58:36 AM
You dont need a well sofisticated lab for do this.

I think you need a nuclear reactor. 
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: Baseball_Fan on June 22, 2006, 01:11:58 AM
You dont need a well sofisticated lab for do this.

I think you need a nuclear reactor. 


How hard are those to make? :)

It makes me think back to Richard Feynman and what it must have been like when they were doing the research, and making the bomb for the first time. If they could do it, then I suppose if you get enough smart people together, they'll be able to do it too. The only thing that can be done is to limit the materials which are used to make nuclear bombs.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: woelen on June 22, 2006, 04:21:35 AM
You didnt understood me. When i mentioned Cobalt, i mean that someone can buy Co-59, and do it Co-60. Someone can buy U-238 and do it Pu-239, someone can buy Berillium and use it as a source of neutrons and do the same with Polonium. Someone can take Cesium and do it radioactive from 132 to 133 (If i remember correct). What i mean is that they can buy <<innocent>> elements and make them VERY DANGEROUS. You dont need a well sofisticated lab for do this. You can easily buy protective uniforms and everything neccessary for this <<project>>. I dont say its easy, but it is deffinetly not impossible.  ;)
Not the Co-59 is the problem, nor the U-238. Obtaining Co-59 is VERY easy. Pottery suppliers sell salts of this (sulfate and carbonate) and yesterday I obtained 50 grams of pure Co-metal as a powder. But do you really think that it is possible to make a nuclear weapon from these?

We should forbid the selling of aluminium disks, doorknobs and strips. These can be used to make an extremely dangerous device. I could make a rocket, finely divide the aluminium and put some ignition/detonation device in that rocket and launch it right into the government building, resulting in severe metal-fire, which is impossible to quench!
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: CGB_Spender on June 22, 2006, 04:48:46 AM
Not the Co-59 is the problem, nor the U-238. Obtaining Co-59 is VERY easy. Pottery suppliers sell salts of this (sulfate and carbonate) and yesterday I obtained 50 grams of pure Co-metal as a powder. But do you really think that it is possible to make a nuclear weapon from these?

When i say nuclear weapon, i dont mean neccessarly atomic bomb. But its much more easy to create a <<Dirty bomb>>. Imagine a device with 1 kilo of Co-60, that explodes in Manhatan for example. Maybe we will not have victims at all, BUT the economical desaster will be ENORMOUS. Think about it.  ;)

Plus someone that <<collects>> U-238. He can theoritically do the same amount of dust U-238, Pu-239. Imagine a <<Collector>> that has 1 or 2 kilos of D.U... Imagine 2-3 <<Collectors>> that working together and they have knoledge of Nuclear technology. I really dont believe that this is just science fiction. ;) I believe that first of all U-238, must be prohibited at all. We cannot be sure about the persons that say that are collectors of elements. 

If i was a collector i admit that i would want to buy U-238 for my collection. Its an element that everyone would want. BUT i would buy just a few gramms PLUS i am not a terrorist. Can we be sure for all the people that say that are Collectors? NO. So the prohibition is the only meassure for be sure. The collectors that are not terrorists, probably would not like this, but we live in a dangerous world, and its neccessary.

For answering your question, i say YES, i believe that it is possible. Not easy BUT possible.  ;)
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: Borek on June 22, 2006, 05:11:52 AM
For answering your question, i say YES, i believe that it is possible. Not easy BUT possible.  ;)

Sorry, but that's only your imagination.

First, in no way can these isotopes be easily converted. What you say is equivalent to "it is not easy to buy a cannon, but terrorists can buy a car, which is made of iron, and convert it into cannon and it will be dangerous, so we have to do background checks on all people buying cars".  Note that it is much easier to convert car into canon or mortar, than to find a way to prepare minute amounts of radioactive isotopes from the available substances.

In a way approach you present leads to what have already happened in Texas with lab glass.

Second, to prepare amounts of radioactive substances you will need resources (in terms of money/knowledge/apparatus) that are beyond the reach of many countries. While terrorists are able to raise money, these amounts are rather beyond their reach. Especially taking into account fact that you may probably buy these things on black market, or that it will be much easier to steal radioactive isotopes from transports or warehouses, then to prepare them by yourself. Note: I am not telling it will be easy to steal, it will be easier then.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: CGB_Spender on June 22, 2006, 05:37:36 AM
I really want to believe that you are correct and its just my imagination, BUT...

Lets go back in 1930. Anyone in the world believed at this period of time, that the creation of an atomic bomb was possible? no. Well, it happened in 1945. In 1945, was anyone that believed that any other country would create nuclear weapons except USA and maybe USSR? No. Well in 1990 about 10 more countries had their nuclear bomb. Was a person in 1990, who believed that even simple people would have access in details about nuclear weapons from their PC and even BUY Uranium online? NO. Well it happens today. Is anyone in this world TODAY who believes that terrorists organisations will have their own nuclear <<dirty bombs>> or even their atomic weapon, in the future? NO...  ;)

This that is impossible today, doesnt mean that will remain for ever impossible.  ;)   
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: Borek on June 22, 2006, 05:49:04 AM
Lets go back in 1930. Anyone in the world believed at this period of time, that the creation of an atomic bomb was possible? no. Well, it happened in 1945.

Germans were close as well. They had huge resources, yet they didn't succeded. It is not that easy.

Quote
This that is impossible today, doesnt mean that will remain for ever impossible.

I am not stating it is impossible for terrorists to put their hands on nuclear weapons. All I am telling is that there are easier ways of getting such weapons than producing it by yourself.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: Will on June 22, 2006, 12:49:09 PM
Where do you plan to put this ban in place? The terrorists could just source the dangerous materials elsewhere, where it is legal, and transport it (it is easier to transport it than one would think), and then it would just create more problems than you think. At least if it is controlled in your country then you know who has bought it and it is possible to do checks on these people. Controlling things is better than banning them, as there are nearly always simple ways to avoid bans.

As you say, lets go back to 1930 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition)...  ;)
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: constant thinker on June 22, 2006, 01:45:25 PM
No matter what, there is always the black market. If you ban guns, someone who really wants a gun will just get it off the black market. I remember hearing stories about people in the USSR (this was in the middle of the cold war, my uncle told me a story about a friend who used to run contraband into the USSR) paying huge sums of money just for a pair of designer American jeans.

Simply banning something does not stop people from getting their hands on it. Look at drugs, they are everywhere in some schools. They were band, but anyone that wants to smoke some pot just has to talk to the right people.

My point is banning something won't do anything really. I'm more worried about terrorists stealing highly radioactive materials rather than making it themselves. Those old Coleman kerosene lamps used to use D.U. in the ceramic burner. A teacher put a geiger counter next to an old one, and it through a lot of clicks. Even from a good 3' (1 meter) away, there were still a lot of clicks from the geiger counter. There are tons of materials in your home, under your kitchen sink even, that you can turn into a bomb, incendiary device, or something else dangerous that could kill people.

For anyone to make a dirty bomb that was really successful in causing long term economic problems, they would need something highly radioactive. Stealing nuclear waste from a nuclear power plant would probably be much easier in cheaper. Well maybe not easier in the U.S., but places were security and regulation is more relaxed.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: CGB_Spender on June 23, 2006, 05:40:43 AM
Where do you plan to put this ban in place? The terrorists could just source the dangerous materials elsewhere, where it is legal, and transport it (it is easier to transport it than one would think), and then it would just create more problems than you think. At least if it is controlled in your country then you know who has bought it and it is possible to do checks on these people. Controlling things is better than banning them, as there are nearly always simple ways to avoid bans.
As you say, lets go back to 1930 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition)...  ;)

The ban must start from the high purity 99,99 U-238, Thorium (especially them), Cobalt, Berillium, Cesium, Graphite and Polonium. Then we'll see. 

Of course the terrorists can find radioactive materials in other places than buy them online and legally. But this doesnt mean that we have to let the selling of dangerous materials. We have to close as much as many holes we can. This messure will not make us safe 100%, but at least will make the life of the terrorists more difficult. Some possible sources for these guys will close. I also dont believe that we can compare the radioactive weapons with the illegal alchohol or drugs or even simple weapons. We are talking here about the worst distructive weapons ever made from human. What we must see for understand this? A giant mushroom over a big city? Even for drugs or illegan guns, if the meassures and the punishment against the responsible people would be harder and stronger, the problem would solve. Authorities just dont care a lot, thats the real problem. 

Plus i dont believe that is easy for terrorists to steal a weapon or even radioactive waste. Things have change even in Russia since 1991. Maybe this would be possible even some years after the falling of USSR, but today safety has restored in big degree. I know that is difficult for you to accept this, but i believe that if someday terrorists obtain nuclear weapons, this wiould be because they will have create them by themselves and not because they will steal them from some place. Dont believe that all the terrorists are not educated poor Arabs. There are also rich maniacs in our world and people with knoledge about these weapons. They are the real big threat.   
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: Borek on June 23, 2006, 06:13:31 AM
The ban must start from the high purity 99,99 U-238, Thorium (especially them), Cobalt, Berillium, Cesium, Graphite and Polonium. Then we'll see.

Will you ever understand, that banning U-238 doesn't change anything, as it is of no use for nuclear terrorists?

Graphite ban is especially ridiculous, but I think I can overbid you here... We have to ban water! Water always contain traces of heavy water, which is used in nuclear reactors. If we ban water we can be finally safe.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: Will on June 23, 2006, 06:49:15 AM
We have to ban water! Water always contain traces of heavy water, which is used in nuclear reactors. If we ban water we can be finally safe.

Just what I was thinking! There are a number of campaigns to ban this dangerous chemical see t (http://www.dhmo.org/)h (http://www.public.iastate.edu/~fds3/index.html)e (http://www.dhmo.org/)s (http://www.public.iastate.edu/~fds3/index.html)e (http://www.dhmo.org/) websites. Don't forget, we should ban ammonium nitrate, a very popular explosive fertilizer.

There are also rich maniacs in our world and people with knoledge about these weapons. They are the real big threat.   

...because people with money can get almost anything they want, regardless of a ban.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: constant thinker on June 23, 2006, 01:38:52 PM
U-238 isn't very dangerous. U-238 has a half-life of around 4.46 × 109. It's used in tank shells in the form of depleted uranium.

It's actually used as radiation shielding in some nuclear reactors I believe.

There is probably a wikipedia entry on it. Search for it on http://wikipedia.org/.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: Borek on June 23, 2006, 02:53:18 PM
It's used in tank shells in the form of depleted uranium.

Keel of racing-yachts - must be massive, but as small as possible, depleted uranium is relatively cheap and has high density.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: xiankai on June 24, 2006, 02:37:42 AM
Quote
this wiould be because they will have create them by themselves and not because they will steal them from some place. Dont believe that all the terrorists are not educated poor Arabs. There are also rich maniacs in our world and people with knoledge about these weapons. They are the real big threat.   

if we're thinking terrorists building nuclear bombs here, maybe we can look at Iran and Korea, where whole governments may be dedicated to making bombs. (they may not, but its the possibility that we are worrying about) They are truly the biggest threats, what can a ban do against them?

Quote
It makes me think back to Richard Feynman and what it must have been like when they were doing the research, and making the bomb for the first time. If they could do it, then I suppose if you get enough smart people together, they'll be able to do it too. The only thing that can be done is to limit the materials which are used to make nuclear bombs.

that was during a war, and a government war budget is huge, especially the US.

Quote
The ban must start from the high purity 99,99 U-238, Thorium (especially them), Cobalt, Berillium, Cesium, Graphite and Polonium. Then we'll see.

if you must, research on the usefullness of these materials for other uses first. you must have an open mind, especially when the benefits outweight the risks.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: constant thinker on June 24, 2006, 10:58:11 PM
Now that you bring up North Korea and Iran, I would be more afraid of either of the 2 countries giving terrorists highly radioactive materials that they don't need anymore. That's a very plausible scenario, and one that would make a dirty bomb an imminent threat.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: CGB_Spender on June 25, 2006, 05:02:56 AM
Will you ever understand, that banning U-238 doesn't change anything, as it is of no use for nuclear terrorists?
Graphite ban is especially ridiculous, but I think I can overbid you here... We have to ban water! Water always contain traces of heavy water, which is used in nuclear reactors. If we ban water we can be finally safe.

First of all Borek, relax. We just talking here, there is no reason to get angry and agressive. I am just telling my opinion here.

Allow me to disagree with your opinion that U-238, has no use for terrorists. It can easyly be pu-239. The real problem is not how someone can do it Pu-239, the real problem is the protective meassures that someone must take for doing this. The creation of Pu-239 is ridiculous easy. If someone has U-238, then he has the first material for create the basic material for his fission bomb. And thats SOMETHING serious i believe. As i said with the banning of U and Th, we will not be 100% safe, but at least we will close some holes.  ;)

I will overlook your hironic comments for water. I am sure you are smart enough for understand the difference between materials that can become materials for a fission bomb and the water or even the heavy water that has no use if you dont have U-238.

I have nothing else to add. I said my opinion and i let the other <<judge>> it. We are living in dangerous times and nothing is science fiction today. Everything is possible and even if we close some holes thats something than doing nothing at all. I will repeat that i really wish all these are my imagination and only as you Borek said before some posts. I really want to believe that you are correct my friend.

- Best CGB_Spender.  :)   
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: pantone159 on June 25, 2006, 10:47:07 AM
Allow me to disagree with your opinion that U-238, has no use for terrorists. It can easyly be pu-239.

The creation of Pu-239 is ridiculous easy.

No, the creation of Pu-239 is VERY HARD and it CANNOT be done (to any useful degree) without a nuclear reactor, which implies that one already has real fissionable materials (i.e. U-235).  U-238 is NOT of any use to terrorists at all.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: Alberto_Kravina on June 25, 2006, 10:57:43 AM
Banning graphite? Do you mean that everybody has a device to build nuclear weapons in his peicil case (a pencil) ?

As Borek said, I think that it would be a complete nonsense to ban these elements
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: constant thinker on June 25, 2006, 06:33:19 PM
I have to agree with Mark K. I personally think without a nuclear reactor, it'll be extremely hard if not possible. Now with the reactor it becomes easy.

If it's easy for the average person to do CGB_Spender, then how will they do it without a nuclear reactor? Is there a method I'm not aware of that doesn't require a nuclear reactor.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: Borek on June 25, 2006, 06:53:27 PM
how will they do it without a nuclear reactor?

My take is that CGB doesn't know anything about physics/chemistry involved, yet for some reason he thinks these things must be easy. It is enough to add one proton to U-238 to convert it to plutonium and you hear they do these things (like bombarding with protons or neutrons) in labs every day, so it must be easy. Well, maybe not very easy, but easy enough. You are not going to convince him that it is not true.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: CGB_Spender on June 27, 2006, 05:55:38 AM
My take is that CGB doesn't know anything about physics/chemistry involved, yet for some reason he thinks these things must be easy. It is enough to add one proton to U-238 to convert it to plutonium and you hear they do these things (like bombarding with protons or neutrons) in labs every day, so it must be easy. Well, maybe not very easy, but easy enough. You are not going to convince him that it is not true.

You know Borek, maybe you are correct and i dont know anything about physics/chemistry involved... But i am surprised that a well educated person like you that knows almost anything, dont realise that a creation of a nuclear reactor from civillians or terrorists is not science fiction. Of course and its very hard, if not impossible to do U-238 to Pu-239 without a reactor. But what about if someone build one? And before you starting laugh, i want to say that i dont mean a high-tech, huge reactor like these that exist in Nuclear factories. If someone obtains grafhite, cadmium, Be, Heavy water, some neccessary chemicals for the separation of Pu from H.Water in big amounts and protective uniforms he can do it. He can build a small reactor in his back yard that would do U-238 to Pu-239. He/They just need knoledge, money, space for the reactor and time. Science fiction? Maybe...   
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: Will on June 27, 2006, 06:43:18 AM
He/They

He/They/She ;)

Science fiction? Maybe...

Maybe definately! ;D
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: constant thinker on June 27, 2006, 05:28:12 PM
Actually I think a group of people could do it with sufficient knowledge and resources. It's plausible but HIGHLY unlikely. They are more likely to raise red flags with the government and their neighbors before coming close to completion. Plus you need to have someone monitoring 24/7.

I personally see it being so hard that no one could do it with out blowing themselves up, or giving themselves a lethal dose of radiation. Also, I'm sure pretty much anyone with knowledge to build a reactor doesn't have the courage to do it, or the resources for that matter.

To me, I'm not worried. It's just not a threat that someone could whip up a nuclear reactor for that purpose even given the materials. I think it would be next to impossible to do. If a terrorist wants material like that, they will probably steal it from some under regulated and funded nuclear power plant in a developing country or USSR break away. Alternatively they may buy it on the black market.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: pantone159 on June 27, 2006, 11:12:06 PM
Actually I think a group of people could do it with sufficient knowledge and resources.

NOT with just U-238, though.  U-235 is an essential piece you can't do without!
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: CGB_Spender on June 28, 2006, 07:10:51 AM
NOT with just U-238, though.  U-235 is an essential piece you can't do without!

 ??? I dont understant. In a U-238 reactor, you dont need U-235 at all. The -235 isotope has nothing to do with the transubstantiation of U-238. Heres whats happening:

U-238 + 1n ---> U-239 (emits a beta particle) ---> Ne-239 (emits a beta particle) ---> Pu-239
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: Will on June 28, 2006, 07:50:59 AM
Ne-239

No such isotope of neon exists, that I know of anyway. I think you probably meant Np-239.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: pantone159 on June 28, 2006, 12:22:32 PM
Where do the neutrons come from??

(Hint:  From fission of U-235.)
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: CGB_Spender on June 28, 2006, 02:30:28 PM
What about if they use another source for neutrons as Be? Imagine a sphere reactor that in the center you put a small sphere of Be or Be mixed with Po. The fast neutrons become thermic with the neccessary heavy water. Outside you put U-238 dust. (Just imagine three concentric circles, the first small (Be), the other bigger enough (Heavy water) and the last one, bigger than the other two. (U-238 dust) The hole devise is sinked into a tank with common cold water as a cooler. After the neccessary time you pull the device, open it and collect the Pu-239. This device is called the ''Lepsia Sphere'' and it was desighned from NAZI scientists at the end of WW2. The big advantage is that it creates Pu-239 from U-238 AND ONLY.  ;)
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: constant thinker on June 28, 2006, 03:21:20 PM
The statement you quoted Mark K, I left it broad purposely. I don't know everything that goes into a reactor, but I know that the U-235 is used as the main fissile material in a nuclear reactor.

The Be still requires an alpha radiation emmiter to give off neutrons I believe. Ra, Am, or Po would be good elements probably for the alpha radiation part. In the end though, you still require more than just U-238.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: Will on June 28, 2006, 03:26:34 PM
The big advantage is that it creates Pu-239 from U-238 AND ONLY.  ;)

Whats stopping Pu-240 from being produced?

Quote from: Wikipedia
The isotope Pu-240 undergoes spontaneous fission very readily, and is produced when Pu-239 is exposed to neutrons.

and
Fission activity is relatively rare, so even after significant exposure, the Pu-239 is still mixed with a great deal of U-238 (and possibly other isotopes of uranium), oxygen, other components of the original material, and fission products.

If I were a rich terrorist with resources to build the reactor you described, then it still wouldn't be worth it. It would be so much easier to do what a terrorist does with other non-radioactive stuff.

Governments should concentrate  on getting rid of terrorists, not elements like graphite. If you had a choice to vote for a governement that had effective policies to ban graphite and U-238 for citizens or one that had effective policies to exterminate terrorists (everything else equal), which one would you vote for?
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: constant thinker on June 28, 2006, 03:41:00 PM
I agree with you Will on both points. It's easier to terrorize people without bothering with radioactive material, and the government should go after the terrorists because if they don't have access to radioactive material they can still just go and use a conventional weapon.
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: jdurg on July 06, 2006, 10:31:57 PM
I think you are severely overlooking the fact that beryllium, while it does create neutrons, is HORRIFCALLY slow at generating neutrons and is pretty damned inefficient.  A clandestine lab would blow its budget in seconds in order to come up with the raw material needed to produce microscopic amounts of these materials.

When an "element dealer" sells elements, they are sold in very small amounts at a HUGE markup over the bulk price.  This is how they make money.  Terrorists and "bad people" aren't magical creatures that have unlimited resources.  Like everyone else on earth, if they want something they need to come up with the money to procure it.  The amount of money they would need to spend to get what they need would bankrupt them.  Do you honestly think Osama Bin Laden would be able to do the s#*$ he does if he wasn't loaded with money?  While terrorists are spineless cowards, they aren't stupid.

A great analogy is to say that you could ruin the economy by flooding it with gold and causing the price of gold to plummett to nothing.  Gold exists in the ocean dissolved as a salt.  You just need to extract that gold salt and then refine it.  There's millions of pounds of gold dissolved in the waters of the Earth, and if you purify it you can cause the price of gold on the market to drop to nothing and cripple the economy.  It may not be easy, but you can do it
Title: Re: Element collections and terrorism
Post by: pantone159 on July 07, 2006, 02:34:50 AM
What about if they use another source for neutrons as Be? Imagine a sphere reactor that in the center you put a small sphere of Be or Be mixed with Po.

In another thread, I explained out how this can't get you *nearly* enough neutrons to make real trouble.

http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=9519.0