June 07, 2020, 02:17:31 AM
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Topic: Foaming of urine during electrolysis.  (Read 325 times)

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Offline RIKRIK

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Foaming of urine during electrolysis.
« on: May 19, 2020, 09:58:58 AM »
Okay recently i have been experimenting with a mixed gas cell for producing hydrogen and nitrogen. For use as a lifting gas for drones. just a fun little side project that interested me. My background is engineering so any chemistry help would be great :)

Urea with a little baking soda has been working well. here is the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELGPdCK4oeo&feature=youtu.be

my main goal if possible is just urine with as few steps of processing as possible. I did try a 50/50 urine / de-ionized water, as i didn't want to overload my cell. The stuff is super conductive even diluted. However the gas produced was trapped in foam generated by the reaction. im not sure of the cause of this. My first thought was protein. So i did try using brewing isinglass. Didnt work . here is a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du_8gYUL6NU

Kind regards
Rik

Offline Borek

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Re: Foaming of urine during electrolysis.
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2020, 04:13:29 AM »
For use as a lifting gas for drones

I wonder how effective it will be, especially in the setup like yours, with all gases being produced in the same place and collected together. My understanding of the process is that it will produce a mixture of nitrogen, carbon dioxide and hydrogen, something like:

2CO(NH2) + 2H2O :rarrow: 2CO2 + N2 + 4H2

If so, the mixture has an average molar mass of 18. That is definitely better than air (around 28), but the buoyancy will be rather low, around 0.44 g/L at the sea level if I am not mistaken.

Beware: hydrogen is highly explosive, you better move outside with these experiments.
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Offline RIKRIK

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Re: Foaming of urine during electrolysis.
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2020, 09:50:47 AM »
Thank you for your comment.

Well i was looking at this patent.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3114717A/en

Obviously theres differences to the patent and what im doing. But it was a toss up between do i seperate the gas's and wait longer for the balloon to fill up. Or do i sacrifice some efficiency and use a larger balloon and a smaller cell that produces gas quicker.

Obviously im still testing. Iv cleared out a old shed for larger scale tests. Tbh i wasn't expecting the gas output to be as high as it was. Just plain tap water i was getting about 1lt per 3minutes. But hopefully working towards 500ml a minute for urea.

My main goal would be using plain urine as it has the urea and salts needed. But as in the main post. Been having foam issues trapping the gas.

Was thinking of a low protien filter. But im a engineer and metal worker. So im not really sure what is causing the issue.

If you can think of anything which may be causing the foaming. That would be amazing.

Or even better after designing the cell. I was stuck for ideals on how to best use it. Iver it can go no where or it can be used for some good. So id ask everyone if they have any experiments i could try.

Kind regards.
Rick

Offline Enthalpy

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Re: Foaming of urine during electrolysis.
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2020, 05:21:49 AM »
I used methane (mains gas). It weighs 16g/mol hence lifts 13g/L. Methane deflagrates, that's far less bad that a hydrogen detonation.

With good heat insulation, water vapour has been used.

Offline Borek

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Re: Foaming of urine during electrolysis.
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2020, 05:34:23 AM »
hence lifts 13g/L

closer to 13/24 g/L at room temp
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Offline Borek

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Re: Foaming of urine during electrolysis.
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2020, 05:44:21 AM »
Just plain tap water i was getting about 1lt per 3minutes.

Have you measured the current? It is rather easy to estimate theoretical amount of gas produced from the Faraday's law of electrolysis, it is directly proportional to charge that passes through the electrode. Tap water has a much higher specific resistance, so the current was probably much lower.

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My main goal would be using plain urine as it has the urea and salts needed.

Typical concentration of urea in urine is below 10 g/L, assuming gases are produced according to the reaction I posted earlier (just a guess, doesn't have to be correct) you would get below 20 L of gases from 1 L of urine. Once the urea is consumed you are left with just water electrolysis.
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Offline Enthalpy

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Re: Foaming of urine during electrolysis.
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2020, 05:42:15 AM »
hence lifts 13g/L

closer to 13/24 g/L at room temp

My bad, I meant g/mol. Air about 29g/mol, methane 16g/mol, lift 13g/mol. So at +25°C and sea level, 0.53kg/m3.

Offline RIKRIK

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Re: Foaming of urine during electrolysis.
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2020, 10:54:16 AM »
I used methane (mains gas). It weighs 16g/mol hence lifts 13g/L. Methane deflagrates, that's far less bad that a hydrogen detonation.

With good heat insulation, water vapour has been used.

Thankyou for your comment, What would be the best way to produce methane.
kind regards,
Rick

Offline RIKRIK

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Re: Foaming of urine during electrolysis.
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2020, 10:59:26 AM »
Just plain tap water i was getting about 1lt per 3minutes.

Have you measured the current? It is rather easy to estimate theoretical amount of gas produced from the Faraday's law of electrolysis, it is directly proportional to charge that passes through the electrode. Tap water has a much higher specific resistance, so the current was probably much lower.

Quote
My main goal would be using plain urine as it has the urea and salts needed.

Typical concentration of urea in urine is below 10 g/L, assuming gases are produced according to the reaction I posted earlier (just a guess, doesn't have to be correct) you would get below 20 L of gases from 1 L of urine. Once the urea is consumed you are left with just water electrolysis.

Heres a video of tap water https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT_RuZ0aQfE&feature=youtu.be . tested the gas out put plus i have a amp and current meter. obviously the water get mucky after awhile. i find adding a weak acid helps keep everything in solution. well i think it does. not a expert. Im curious would the lift results be slightly more as theirs twice as much hydrogen than nitrogen for urea being produced.  im sure im wrong but just checking.

kind regards,
Rick

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