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Topic: H+/H2O  (Read 1799 times)

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Offline Dck140130

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H+/H2O
« on: April 08, 2022, 11:54:18 AM »
Hello, what does it mean when an equation is written with H+/H20 over the equation arrow? If it means that the reaction occurs in the presence of H+/H20 is there anything you have to do beside put all reactants in a beaker with the hydrogen ions and h2o? Wouldn’t H+ in a beaker with H20 make H30+, so how is H+/H20 different from H30+?

Offline Hunter2

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Re: H+/H2O
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2022, 12:34:57 PM »
That means the reaction takes place in acidic aqueous environment.

Offline Dck140130

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Re: H+/H20 Mechanism Reaction
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2022, 04:10:34 PM »
What does it mean to have a H+/H20 reaction. Does this mean the H20 is used as a solvent and you also need the presence of H+ (Hydron)? But it is my understanding that Hydron doesn’t exist in a naked state, so what does this mean? Do you use H3O+ and mix reactants in aqueous hydronium? Is there an easiest way to get pure H30+?


MOD Edit
this post was extracted to this thread from another thread where it was posted
It appears you hijacked a very old thread to basically post your original question with some additions
we do not double post in this forum
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Forum Rules: Read This Before Posting

DCK140130 Edit @MOD
Would you like me to delete my comments here? Yes I have duplicated my efforts to find solution to my problem. I believe it would add to the value/completeness of this thread. My intent was not to hijack.  Kindly, DCK
« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 05:51:01 PM by Dck140130 »

Online billnotgatez

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Re: H+/H2O
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2022, 04:36:49 PM »
Using GOOGLE the following article was found
search on
Quote
H3O+ vs H+
results containded
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The Hydronium Ion - Chemistry LibreTexts
https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry_Textbook_Maps/Supplemental_Modules_(Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry)/Acids_and_Bases/Acids_and_Bases_in_Aqueous_Solutions/The_Hydronium_Ion
when searching on
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H3O+ vs H+/H2O

I had to go to the second search page to get the same link (i must admit)


« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 04:55:36 PM by billnotgatez »

Offline Dck140130

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Re: H+/H2O
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2022, 06:00:59 PM »
Thank you BradytoBranch for this post. Thank you @billnotgatez, @MOD, and @Hunter2 for your information and advisement.

It appears from my research that H+ does not exist in a naked state. Like @Hunter2 suggested, that H+/H20 denotes a arrhenius acid in water, which means that the mix of the two will produce a solution that is part H30+ and part whatever the arrhenius acid of choice is. Does that sound right?

If pure H3O+ is desired then I imagine the mixture must undergo another process to separate the undesired atoms or molecules.
                                                              Δ
For instance, HBr + H20   ::equil:: H3O+ + Br  :rarrow: H3O+ (BP of Br =58.8 C)?

I apologize for "hijacking" or subtracting from this thread in any way. Kindly, DCK
« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 06:25:36 PM by Dck140130 »

Offline Borek

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Re: H+/H2O
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2022, 03:47:23 AM »
HBr + H20   ::equil:: H3O+ + Br

This is not balanced - what happened to charge?

More general note: even H3O+ is a simplification. Actually proton (H+ if you want) is hydrated by several water molecules, you can think about the situation as if it was an equilibrium system with several compound of the general formula (H2O)n+.
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Offline OrganicH2O

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Re: H+/H2O
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2022, 11:59:40 AM »
H+/H2O means the same thing as H3O+. Sometimes especially lazy people will even write it as "H+", which probably also means H3O+, although here it feels a little ambiguous to me whether water is present.

All these things just mean a solution of strong acid and water, where the identity of the strong acid itself isn't very relevant. For example H2O/H2SO4, or H2O/HCl. In many cases you can achieve the same result with an aqueous solution of water and a variety of strong acids, if the conjugate base of the strong acid isn't involved in the chemical reaction.

All of these representations are unrealistic for various reasons. The most basic reason is that the overall charge of the solution must be balanced, and the spectator anion is omitted. Others have already pointed out that H+ doesn't exist by itself because it always forms a covalent bond to something. And also H3O+ is solvated by water molecules. Solvation issues are rarely indicated during the presented during the presentation of a chemical reaction. Organic chemists seem to be very lazy about correctly indicating some simple ideas from general chemistry, such as charge balance or balancing equations in general.
I have a Master's in organic chemistry and I am exposed to a LOT of different introductory organic chem classes in the course of my work, ranging from very basic to Harvard. I am here to refine my knowledge and consult with other organic chemistry nerds.

Offline rolnor

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Re: H+/H2O
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2022, 07:30:13 AM »
It can be a weak acid to?

Offline Corribus

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Re: H+/H2O
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2022, 10:35:55 AM »
There are a number of problems with the post two posts above this one. For one, calling people lazy when they use "H+" is unfair - this was the convention for many years and is still widely practiced. Although H3O+ is more accurate, in that it incorporates the idea of proton solvation, (as noted above by Borek) the hydronium complex actually extends beyond a single water molecule. In fact, the solvation of protons in water is still an area of active research. So for my part, H+ is perfectly acceptable shorthand and does not indicate laziness.

(I might cheekily point to the irony of calling organic chemists lazy, when at the same the poster doesn't take the time to apply subscripts and superscripts to chemical formulae ;) ).

Also note that weak or strong acid has little to do with anything here. Both of them generate hydronium ions in aqueous solvents.

Quote
Others have already pointed out that H+ doesn't exist by itself because it always forms a covalent bond to something
This also isn't completely true. The high charge density of H+ means that it readily combines with other atoms in condensed phases, but it has been observed in free ionic state under high vacuum conditions, see e.g. here. Free protons can also be deliberately produced, albeit only for short times. Free protons have a number of applications, including cancer therapy.
What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?  - Richard P. Feynman

Offline OrganicH2O

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Re: H+/H2O
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2022, 01:00:52 PM »
I did not mean to offend, and I was being cheeky myself. I am pretty lazy about these things sometimes myself, especially due to some hand pain from writing so many mechanisms in my life.

Also, I should've considered weak aqueous acid as an option for what H3O+ means.

And it is interesting to learn about free H+ forming under high vacuum, and their deliberate production.
I have a Master's in organic chemistry and I am exposed to a LOT of different introductory organic chem classes in the course of my work, ranging from very basic to Harvard. I am here to refine my knowledge and consult with other organic chemistry nerds.

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