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Topic: HCL + H20 produce H30+?  (Read 1214 times)

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Offline Dck140130

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HCL + H20 produce H30+?
« on: April 08, 2022, 06:31:48 PM »
 Hello,

Is this correct?

HCl(aq) + H20 (aq)  :rarrow: H30(aq) + Cl(g)

Offline billnotgatez

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Re: HCL + H20 produce H30+?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2022, 07:00:49 PM »

Using GOOGLE and searching on the left hand side of your equation
Quote
HCl(aq) + H20 (aq)
and selecting the choice from a well known source
Britannica
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chemical reaction - The Brønsted-Lowry theory - Encyclopedia ...
we are directed to
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The Brønsted-Lowry theory
https://www.britannica.com/science/chemical-reaction/The-Bronsted-Lowry-theory
which shows a different formula than what you had in your post.




Offline Borek

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Re: HCL + H20 produce H30+?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2022, 03:48:25 AM »
Charges!

And once you will get charges right you will see there is no gaseous product.
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Offline rolnor

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Re: HCL + H20 produce H30+?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2022, 08:15:48 AM »
It was really not correct.

Offline Dck140130

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Re: HCL + H20 produce H30+?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2022, 06:17:35 PM »
@billnotgatez thank you again! The way you answer also helps instruct on how to find answers despite my naivety.

Thank you @Borek for the additional education. I've been solely focused on how to of obtaining product and appreciate knowledge of the why.

@rolnor... low blow, no cookie for you.

Wondering if I can just boil off the the Cl and be left with H3O+?

Offline Borek

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Re: HCL + H20 produce H30+?
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2022, 03:22:30 AM »
Wondering if I can just boil off the the Cl and be left with H3O+?

Told you to not ignore the charges, they completely change the situation.
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Offline rolnor

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Re: HCL + H20 produce H30+?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2022, 04:50:55 AM »
Yes, I was not nice but its also true what I wrote. You are lacking skills on a very fundamental level and need to do some reading, thats just a fact, no harm intended. If this was a coocking-forum your question would be on the same level as "should I use water when I boil pasta?" Do some reading. Here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid

Offline Dck140130

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Re: HCL + H20 produce H30+?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2022, 12:47:31 PM »
Thank you @rolnor and @Borek. pointing to missing knowledge helps. I am aware of my naivety but am trying to perform a recipe and am not trying to reread my chemistry textbooks. I will try to figure out what it means to not ignore the charges (obviously I understand electrons are negative, protons or positive, and valence shells have a maximum that effects whether they can bond and the strength of the bond) and will read the Acid wiki before I return to the forums. I have never understood the condescending nature of forum culture as though sharing knowledge should only begin once a person is at a certain level. As an electrical engineer, I would never treat someone as though they were wasting my time because they didn't understand number theory or boolean logic or even how to read an algebraic equation.

P.S. whoever took away a snack from me... ow

Offline rolnor

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Re: HCL + H20 produce H30+?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2022, 02:39:46 PM »
I am usually not condesending, I wanted to be very CLEAR. It was tough love kind of.
I notice your enthusiasm and that is something very valuable, I hope I did not kill that.

Offline Borek

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Re: HCL + H20 produce H30+?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2022, 02:41:17 PM »
I will try to figure out what it means to not ignore the charges

In short: when writing reaction equation you need to write charges of the ions and make sure, they balance (so while sometimes H :rarrow: H+ is an acceptable shorthand, in general it is wrong as the charge appears from nowhere). In this very thread you started with an "equation" that contained things like H3O (doesn't exist as far as I am aware, it should be H3O+) and Cl (guessing from the context you meant Cl-). Cl and Cl- have fundamentally different properties - the first one occurs only in highly exotic condition of low pressure and high temperature, the latter is present in every water solution (including bath water, vodka and soft drinks) you dealt with in your life.

Quote
I have never understood the condescending nature of forum culture as though sharing knowledge should only begin once a person is at a certain level.

We have nothing against helping anyone, but we are often flooded with requests from kids not even bothering to open their textbooks yet hoping someone will help with their homework. The basic approach here is to give pointers, not answers.
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Offline Dck140130

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Re: HCL + H20 produce H30+?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2022, 12:18:02 AM »
@rolnor, your tough love was effective despite my lack of appreciation. My use of "lowblow" and "no cookie" was meant to express my distaste somewhat in jest too. I am embarrassed as well for my laziness, naivety, and manner of handling your response. My motivation remains.

@Borek, thank you for the additional education. I was lazy in my notation and, similar to students looking for shortcuts, I admit that I am in the forums looking to be spoon fed as well.

I want to express my heartfelt gratitude that everyone even took the time to read and reply. The consequent rabbit holes I have traveled are going to take some time to organize and think more critically about before I am ready return with a well researched inquiry that is considerate to everyone's time here.

I think that we can conclude this thread with the following as a solution:

from @rolnor - the answer to my question is no

from @billnotgates - https://www.britannica.com/science/chemical-reaction/The-Bronsted-Lowry-theory shows that the reaction is dynamic (::equil::), albeit a product favored reaction, and that the Cl- in the product is the weak base and aqueous. That H2O is the base reactant in the Bronsted-Lowry reaction and that HCl is the strong acid reactant.

from @Borek - charges matter, and that https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid indicates that what makes HCl qualify as an arrhenius bronsted-lowry acid is that it readily donates a proton in the form of H+(aka protonation, protolysis). Since H2O is present, the H+ donated by the HCl, bonds with the H20 to form H3)+ and leaves Cl- in aqueous form, or as a solvent in the solution. Since HCl is a "strong acid" it readily dissociates in water. Since there is a 1:1 relationship between protonation of the HCl and H2O, HCl also falls into the category of monoprotic acid.

A link within the wiki recommendation from @Borek (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrochloric_acid) immediately reveals that H3O+ (hydronium) in fact constitutes the HCl with Cl- and they will likely form other hydrogen bonds with neighboring H2O molecules in a variety of ways. In the presence of enough H20 however, it is likely to entirely dissociate into H3O+ and Cl-. The wiki page also indicates that the mass fraction of the HCl effects physical properties such as boiling point. For example it indicates that the mixture will act as an azeotrope if the mass fraction 20.2% and this means that at the corresponding boiling point that the vapor will be maintain the same proportions that existed in the mixture. This point is somewhat related to my asking if I can just boil off the Cl- since the product of the Bronsted-Lowry reaction is favored and Cl- boiling point is significantly lower than H2O, but perhaps not so low that H30+ would not be denatured in the process. However, I consider the boiling point of H3O+ to likely be similar to H2O and well above that of Cl- since the bonds of the hydrogen and H+ are covalent with the O (not positive this point though). Certainly need to keep top of mind eutectic and azeotropic properties based on mass fraction it appears. It does not look like hydrogen bonds between H3O+ require much attention.

Other research makes it look like the most efficient way to remove Cl- ions is with Silver Nitrate to form precipitates and then filter. I would like to avoid introduction of more elements as it feels like steps away from the final product rather than towards. such is the game i guess.

ultimately the reaction i am trying to perform here I have attached an image of. My initial question was because I was trying to figure out how to make sure my reactants are combined in the presence of H+/H2O

additional answers I will need to discover is how to get rid of the diethyl ether in one of my reactants and where the heck the MgBr went.

Thanks again everyone.










Offline rolnor

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Re: HCL + H20 produce H30+?
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2022, 12:53:50 AM »
Great, but the scheeme in the bottom makes me puzzled, you should not have water or acid present when doing Grignard chemistry, that will quench the Grignard reagent.

Offline Borek

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Re: HCL + H20 produce H30+?
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2022, 03:32:59 AM »
Cl- boiling point

No such thing, you are definitely confused somewhere.

Boiling point relates to liquids, there is no liquid composed of Cl- only. There are plenty of liquids (mostly solutions) in which Cl- is a component, but it is always accompanied by some positive ion, as the solution must be electrically neutral (think about repelling forces).
« Last Edit: April 14, 2022, 06:05:24 AM by Borek »
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Offline rolnor

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Re: HCL + H20 produce H30+?
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2022, 06:11:54 AM »
I wonder, it should be possible to theoreticaly model neat Cl-, but the ions have the same charge so what would that substance be? Maybe a gas at roomtemp?

Offline Borek

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Re: HCL + H20 produce H30+?
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2022, 09:35:11 AM »
Single ions, at very low pressure - yes. But once you get into practical amounts coulombic forces involved are enormous, so there is no way to keep it confined.
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