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Topic: Electricity and Heat for Ukraine  (Read 1398 times)

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Offline Enthalpy

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Electricity and Heat for Ukraine
« on: October 03, 2023, 09:23:22 PM »
As I receive no replies, maybe this thread
  Generators for Ukraine
better continues in the Personal Blogs here.

I had thought at Diesel-electric locomotives, of which certainly many more are available from other countries. Airplane APU convert very little power to electricity. But more vehicles use a Diesel-electric power train, including some haul trucks
  wikipedia - wikipedia
2.0MW to 2.8MW electricity, wow! Plus as much heat in the water and oil cooler, and in the exhaust, where an exchanger can send hot water in a city's heating network. The second war winter comes, transformer bombings have begun.

Among the T 282, T 282 B, T 282 C, some are being retired right now. Do other manufacturers offer Diesel-electric too? Other vehicles do for sure. Maybe some turbine-electric power trains, from boats and locomotives, get scrapped presently.

The first locomotives with three-phase motors are being retired. Their electronics convert DC or single-phase AC into three-phase of any frequency, but they use to provide a higher voltage and may not deliver their full 6MW at 240/400V. This electronics could feed the network from electricity made by the engines.

Offline marquis

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Re: Electricity and Heat for Ukraine
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2023, 08:11:51 PM »
Some of the plans on the US for power in an emergency included using nuclear submarines as power sources for the grid.  Did a search on the internet, and apparently, this is still an option.  The power originally discussed was in the easily in the 50 MW area.  Newer subs are capable of much more, but being docked would certainly reduce their power.  FYI.

Offline marquis

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Re: Electricity and Heat for Ukraine
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2023, 09:41:19 AM »
Can you maybe get an old surplus submarine?  I'm serious.  The batteries in a diesel sub are the first thing to go.  But the generators might still be good.  Now the voltage range they work on.. Don't know.

Offline Enthalpy

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Re: Electricity and Heat for Ukraine
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2023, 04:39:04 PM »
Wow, that's original!

50MVA at 240/400V is very uncomfortable, 1500V to 6000V is better. The distribution transformers to 240/400V output typically 1MVA, and then the use too narrow iron columns  so that 1 turn provides the voltage. That is, the secondaries comprise just a thick copper foil. So these distribution transformers rarely go beyond 1MVA, and companies put more of them, spread among the consumers. Neither do the companies want to transport more power over more distance.

Surplus submarine: Turkey has closed the straights to all military vessels. A submarine would need to come from Greece, Bulgaria, Romania (or Turkey). Plus, I bet Ukraine would refurbish it to use as a submarine.

Offline marquis

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Re: Electricity and Heat for Ukraine
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2023, 08:36:58 PM »
The WWII cargo boats used a similar diesel electric system to that which was mentioned by you for railroad engines. Here is a reference that might be interesting:

Shop to Shore Power -United States Navy Humanitarian Releif? By R. Derek Scott, 6.691 Seminar in Electric Power Systems, MIT, Spring 2006. Hopefully, it's not too farfetched.

Offline marquis

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Re: Electricity and Heat for Ukraine
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2023, 09:14:48 PM »
Should be " Ship to Shore power" not Shop to Shore power.  So much for this spell checker. 

Offline Enthalpy

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Re: Electricity and Heat for Ukraine
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2023, 04:53:21 PM »
The Russians destroy bigger electric equipment using Iranian drones than 1MVA 240/400V transformers. More like 20MW 20kV power substations. These too can be replaced in a limited time.

Many airlines scrapped their A-380 during the Covid. Their engines provide around 30MW shaft power each (but are coveted for other airliners), just remove the fan. The B-747 engines must provide some 20MW shaft power too and have fewer buyers. Other plane engine models are available. The exhaust contains also about 40MW heat.

5-20MW units presently replace 1.5MW wind turbines to produce more electricity from the same area. The 1.5MW generators are operational and available. Most generators are geared, fast and small. They are synchronized mechanically with the grid or have electronics, and use to provide three-phase around 20kV.

The airliner engine rotates a dozen wind turbine generators over a taylor-made gear. Some German companies have spare capacity presently.

Offline marquis

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Re: Electricity and Heat for Ukraine
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2023, 06:28:24 PM »
Best of luck.  No doubt, this is a technical chsllenge.  Regards.

Offline Enthalpy

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Re: Electricity and Heat for Ukraine
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2023, 04:01:51 PM »
Thanks! Some elements that ease the project:
  • Turbofans have a second (sometimes third) shaft, with many turbine stages of big diameter, to rotate slowly enough for the fan built as big as possible. More recent turbofans have a gear instead.
  • The resulting aggregate doesn't need to fly.
  • Terrestrial versions of the Trent are meant for that same purpose and can inspire the designers.
  • Turbofans have already subtle control electronics (Fadec).

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