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Topic: Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3  (Read 29856 times)

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Offline CaelynTek

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Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3
« on: November 16, 2006, 12:00:54 PM »
Greetings,

First off, I am not a chemist, nor do I have even a fundamental chemistry knowledge other than how to read an MSDS sheet and determine necessary precautions from it.

I am the administrator of a large online forum dedicated to a particular hobby. One of MANY such forums for this hobby. One of the types of products used by our number, is "powered" by a refrigerant gas that has been called "Green Gas" For a couple of years now, there has been a debate going on as to the ACTUAL chemical composition of this gas, which primarily comes from Taiwan, Hong Kong or Korean sources.

The debate started when an entrepreneurial person from the US came onto the scene with a new product. He made claims that he had tested this gas from Asia, and found it to be nothing more than propane, with a nice oder additive. And thus his product, was an adapter to put on Coleman propane bottles, so we can fill our hobby's devices with straight propane, which is cheaper... a LOT cheaper than the Taiwanese green gas.

He gives his results to the tests, in the form of badly scanned, hard to read printouts from his own devised chemical analysis system.

Now, the cans of "Green Gas" do have labels... and they state that their chemical makeup is "CH2 FCF3 CH3" The maker of this adapter, claims that this chemical is impossible to make. And that these containers coming from Taiwan are intentionally mis-labeled to fool us, and the EPA.

Other members of our hobby community have reported this to the EPA and other government regulatory departments, attempting to get a verification. But all they get in return is that "Propane is illegal to vent to atmosphere except in certain controlled situations" or something like that. They do not attempt to verify this entrepreneur's findings, or at least, they have done nothing to stop the import of the green gas cans, or make them label them properly.

So tell me, does CH2 FCF3 CH3 actually exist? Is it a REAL chemical compound? Or... if I were to give any of you a can of "Green Gas" could you test it for me, without me having to pay 100's of dollars. This is the only reason no one has actually been able to verify the entrepreneur's findings... independent testing to so expensive... no one wants to pay to have it done.

Thanks, I appreciate any help you might be able to give me.

Caelyn

Offline mdlhvn

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Re: Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2006, 12:15:37 PM »
I don't know either the precise composition of "Green Gas" or the compound CH2 FCF3 CH3.
But, from the chemical point of view, I can say that it hardly exists. Floro Organic Compounds ususally consists of many floro atoms replacing all H atom, or other forms such as CF3Cl, CF2CL2....


Offline Borek

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Re: Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2006, 12:39:06 PM »
CH2 FCF3 CH3

For sure that's not a formula of existing compound. Hard to say anything else. Can you post these printouts? Or give a link to them?
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Offline Borek

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Re: Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2006, 12:40:38 PM »
Floro Organic Compounds ususally consists of many floro atoms replacing all H atom, or other forms such as CF3Cl, CF2CL2....

They may contain hydrogen as well. And it is fluoro-, not floro-
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Offline DrCMS

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Re: Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2006, 12:58:11 PM »
What is that you do with this material?

Offline Borek

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Re: Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2006, 01:08:05 PM »
What is that you do with this material?

I can see thing is discussed on several paintball forums.
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Offline CaelynTek

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Re: Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2006, 01:23:47 PM »
What is that you do with this material?

Well you may or may not have heard of this hobby... its called "Airsoft". Which is in practice similar to paintball... SIMILAR.... The primary difference being that the guns used are 1:1 replica's of real firearms. Some are simply spring powered, some are electric and spring powered... others are "gas powered". The projectiles are bbs made of polystyrene and a biodegradable adhesive.

You fill a reservoir in each magazine with gas... there are three main gasses used, depending on where the GBB (Gas Blowback) pistol is made. One is CO2, but the replicas that use CO2 are not the best quality, then there are the models that use HFC134A, which is lower in pressure and power than Green Gas... then there is Green Gas.

Guns made in Japan are designed for use with HFC134A
Guns made in Taiwan (usually cheaper than Japanese models) are designed for use with Green Gas
Guns made VERY cheaply in Taiwan, Korea or China are designed for use with CO2.

So what this means is... the gas is released in small quantities with each shot, by a valve activated by the trigger mechanism. The chemical reaction caused when the semi liquid pressurized gas hits air behind the bb causes more pressure to build pushing the bb out the barrel.

Here is the link to the Entrepreneur's web site:

http://www.airsoft-innovations.com/

He has the scans on his site, however.. he currently has his site "down for maintenance" So I could not find direct links to the scans.

The problems is though, I could not say with certainty that this guy actually tested green gas... and even if he did, he may have tested ONE brand of green gas... or tested several and picked one that was actually propane or CONTAINED propane. There are many brands.

What I still wonder though, I myself, and several others have brought this issue up to the EPA... last year, and yet the green gas is still being allowed to be imported. If it truly IS propane, then its being shipped in unsafe containers. Green Gas cans are NOT designed to hold the pressure of propane.

This is really no "skin off my back" because I use a Japanese made replica... but I want this argument to finally be over.

Offline DevaDevil

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Re: Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2006, 05:20:15 PM »
CH2 FCF3 CH3

For sure that's not a formula of existing compound. Hard to say anything else. Can you post these printouts? Or give a link to them?

Damn right Borek: C3H5F4? Violates the CnX2n+2 rule of saturated hydrocarbons.
I'd like to see those printouts as well, maybe we can make some sense of them. I would also like to see the scan of one of those "Green-Gas" labels. To see what they state the contents are.

I'll try to look for it myself, but if you have a scan or link of them?

Offline enahs

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Re: Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2006, 09:55:55 PM »
That formula looks like a bastardization of 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane (CH2FCF3), which is just a cheap and very common refrigerant. It is also possible that to make this product they are just mixing it with propane (as they will not chemically react with each other) and modifying the formula slightly and calling it a new chemical (even though technically it is not); which this is not unheard of, and has been done many many time before.

It would also make sense to put this in with the propane, as it is used to remove the moisture, which is not good for a mechanical pneumatic system (which I assume that is what these guns use).


But the formula as written by you, as others have said does not exist. It is however to much like the above mentioned refrigerant and propane to rule out as a improperly named mixture of the two, as it would make sense from a technical standpoint to do that. If I had to bet money on it (with the provided information), that would be my guess.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 10:03:37 PM by enahs »

Offline DrCMS

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Re: Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2006, 08:43:19 AM »
Does the MSDS you have give either
CAS No. in section 2
or
UN No. proper shipping name and PG in section 14?

Offline CaelynTek

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Re: Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2006, 12:29:17 PM »
I have never seen the MSDS on these "Green Gas" cans, only what is written on the labels:




The key thing here is, the actual contents of these cans aside, I want to prove that they aren't simply propane, As the guy who sells the adapters for Coleman propane to use with the guns, claims they are. Because of his product and his claims, there are MANY airsoft players out there using propane in the field. Charging their pistol magazines with it, and carrying them around in 90-95 degree sun on summer days. These magazines aren't designed for use with straight propane, and the seals are known to degrade from its use.

On top of that they also have propane cannisters in their cars or out in direct sunlight, unattended while playing.

If I can once and for all prove that green gas IS NOT simply propane, I can put an end to MOST of these dangerous situations. And get everyone using the proper airsoft gas sources (Designed for airsoft guns)

For this reason I hoped that the chemical listed above was a real chemical... but if it isn't then it comes back to having to test green gas... which neither I, nor anyone I know, can afford.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 12:38:49 PM by CaelynTek »

Offline Borek

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Re: Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2006, 02:24:54 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane

At least molar mass and boiling point are identical, expolosion limits are pretty close. Especially molar mass is a sure hint at propane. Google for other data from the list - I am almost then sure that most of these things (like specific heat, heat of vaporization) can be found on the web.

After seeing molar mass info I bet it is propane.
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Offline CaelynTek

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Re: Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2006, 02:51:34 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane

At least molar mass and boiling point are identical, expolosion limits are pretty close. Especially molar mass is a sure hint at propane. Google for other data from the list - I am almost then sure that most of these things (like specific heat, heat of vaporization) can be found on the web.

After seeing molar mass info I bet it is propane.

The problem is, we already know that they don't neccessarily mark the real info on the can.

Offline Borek

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Re: Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2006, 03:02:06 PM »
The problem is, we already know that they don't neccessarily mark the real info on the can.

Yes, but it doesn't make sense to pretend you sell something that is specifically not propane yet to put propane characteristics on the can.
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Offline enahs

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Re: Trying to end a chemistry debate, CH2 FCF3 CH3
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2006, 09:10:34 PM »


The key thing here is, the actual contents of these cans aside, I want to prove that they aren't simply propane, As the guy who sells the adapters for Coleman propane to use with the guns, claims they are. Because of his product and his claims, there are MANY airsoft players out there using propane in the field. Charging their pistol magazines with it, and carrying them around in 90-95 degree sun on summer days. These magazines aren't designed for use with straight propane, and the seals are known to degrade from its use.

On top of that they also have propane cannisters in their cars or out in direct sunlight, unattended while playing.

If I can once and for all prove that green gas IS NOT simply propane, I can put an end to MOST of these dangerous situations. And get everyone using the proper airsoft gas sources (Designed for airsoft guns)


Adding a small amount of the 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane that I mentioned in my previous post will also help prevent the degradation of the seall. Also note that the autoignition temperature of propane is well over 400 C. The only risk of the propane in the sun is that if the container can not withstand the increase in pressure of that amount of volume of propane over that particular range (which, unless it is made of plastic it most likely can, with no trouble). It is perfectly safe to carry around essentially a aerosol can filled with propane in the hot sun.

Also note that on the picture of the can your provided it says propane on it, along with the clearly bogus molecular formula.

It is just propane with a small amount of 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane added to remove the moisture and "lubricate" the seals (for lack of a better word) and that chemical formula is just marketing.


I applauded your passion to find out more because you are worried about the risk of propane, but there is not really (excepting holding a flame to it when you release it). If it was that dangerous then you should never take a can of a spray lubricant such as WD-40 out side in the sun, nor any of the aerosol spray cleaning products you will find in any auto parts store (brake parts cleaner, engine degreaser,ect) which sale millions of cans a year and are left in hot cars in direct sun all the time.

Yes on a general principle, leaving a can of propane in a hot car and in the sun is not one of the smartest things you can do, but it is not really dumb either.

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