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Topic: Hydrogen Economy Fallancy, Nuclear Power Plants, Global Warming...  (Read 63667 times)

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Offline constant thinker

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I want to pose this thought, well thoughts.

Nuclear power plants have enormous cooling towers. Those enormous cooling towers release steam, right? Well steam is water as we all know. Now wouldn't water vapor also act like a green house gas, absorbing and trapping the heat.

Hydrogen cars would theoretically release water vapor which would add to water vapor amounts in the atmosphere. Imagine every car being hydrogen powered. I'd think that in some of the major metropolitan areas, they'd wind up seeing an increase in the amount of rain that falls, and the increased water vapor could also potentially trap heat. Also in the Northeast, and places that have a winter, the water vapor coming from the hydrogen cars would probably ice up the roads. Icier roads would mean an increase in salt/deicer usage. An increase in salt/deicer usage would mean pollution from it, and an increase in municipal budgets.

Now personally I'm not sure about water vapor as a greenhouse gas, and I'm all in favor of decreasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, and cutting the down on the use of fossil fuels. Hydrogen powered cars could also pose unintended consequences.

Once again to clarify my stance, I'm all for nuclear energy and the hydrogen economy. I just want to see what people can come up with for possible unintended consequences.

Note: I did not stick numbers anywhere, I'm sure that the CO2 is worse than water vapor as a green house gas.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 11:23:31 PM by constant thinker »
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Offline Donaldson Tan

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Re: Nuclear Power Plants, Hydrogen, and Global Warming
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2007, 09:52:45 PM »
I think the hydrogen economy is a science fiction. Although the hydrogen economy does not release carbon dioxide, it does not facilitate the development of a private sector specialising in carbon capture and storage (CCS).

I support the methanol economy with a gradual transition from mass usage of internal combustion technology to mass usage of electrochemical oxidation (fuel cell) technology. Existing technology is able to convert Carbon Dioxide to Methanol, which in turns create an economic incentive for CCS.
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Offline Borek

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Re: Nuclear Power Plants, Hydrogen, and Global Warming
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2007, 04:00:17 AM »
Hydrogen cars would theoretically release water vapor which would add to water vapor amounts in the atmosphere. Imagine every car being hydrogen powered. I'd think that in some of the major metropolitan areas, they'd wind up seeing an increase in the amount of rain that falls, and the increased water vapor could also potentially trap heat. Also in the Northeast, and places that have a winter, the water vapor coming from the hydrogen cars would probably ice up the roads. Icier roads would mean an increase in salt/deicer usage. An increase in salt/deicer usage would mean pollution from it, and an increase in municipal budgets.

What is the second main product of gas combustion (apart from CO2)?
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Offline constant thinker

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Re: Nuclear Power Plants, Hydrogen, and Global Warming
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2007, 08:20:35 PM »
Hydrogen cars would theoretically release water vapor which would add to water vapor amounts in the atmosphere. Imagine every car being hydrogen powered. I'd think that in some of the major metropolitan areas, they'd wind up seeing an increase in the amount of rain that falls, and the increased water vapor could also potentially trap heat. Also in the Northeast, and places that have a winter, the water vapor coming from the hydrogen cars would probably ice up the roads. Icier roads would mean an increase in salt/deicer usage. An increase in salt/deicer usage would mean pollution from it, and an increase in municipal budgets.

What is the second main product of gas combustion (apart from CO2)?

Our buddy water vapor. Maybe I should have added in there that more water vapor would be released than now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is less energy stored in H2 than in our gasoline. Therefore you need more H2. Thinking about it though, the amounts of water vapor released may be similar.

Geodome, I like the thinking on methanol. As long as we're converting CO2 into methanol, then we're theoretically completing the cycle.

P.S. I know that the hydrogen economy may not ever function.
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Offline Sam (NG)

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Re: Nuclear Power Plants, Hydrogen, and Global Warming
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2007, 07:07:00 PM »
The hydrogen to power the cars has to come from somewhere in the first place, and assuming it's not from crude oil, a promising place is from water in the first place (if certain LARGE obstacles are overcome), so water would be being created and destroyed in a theoretical cycle.  Increasing the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere will have a warming effect though, just think of the difference between cloudy nights and clear nights in winter.  But would all this extra water fall as rain, meaning that atmospheric water levels stayed roughly the same?

Offline billnotgatez

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Re: Nuclear Power Plants, Hydrogen, and Global Warming
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2007, 08:36:20 PM »
Some points to ponder

Water concentration in the air, as vapor is limited.
Carbon dioxide concentration is not limited.
To get hydrogen from water takes energy.
Cooling towers produce steam but remember the first statement.
From Population Clocks the USA is 301,452,660 and the World is 6,584,389,063 at 00:31 GMT (EST+5) Mar 25, 2007 plus it is growing exponentially.
China’s carbon dioxide emissions may be greater than the USA soon or now.


« Last Edit: March 24, 2007, 08:43:25 PM by billnotgatez »

Offline billnotgatez

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Hydrogen Economy Fallacy
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2007, 04:52:11 AM »
http://www.thenewatlantis.com/archive/15/zubrin.htm

I do not know if I totally agree with all said in this article but it is cause for reflection.

allanf

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Re: Hydrogen Economy Fallacy
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2007, 12:24:13 PM »
It does raise some reasonable issues with the widespread use of hydrogen in cars and what-not.  But I've never been convinced that hydrogen fuel-cell cars were going to be technically feasible any time soon anyways, but mostly since it seems a little insane to pump crazy-explosive hydrogen into my car.

I have heard that in some places, such as Britain and Australia, there is talk of doing steam-reformation of coal beds in situ, reducing the environmental footprint of generating hydrogen from hydrocarbons.  But I don't know how practical that is.

Offline billnotgatez

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Re: Hydrogen Economy Fallacy
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2007, 12:56:52 PM »
Many so-called hydrogen fuel cells use methane / natural gas instead of pure hydrogen. They basically strip the hydrogen off of the methane molecule. I am not sure how they dispose of the one existing carbon on each molecule.

Offline Borek

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Re: Hydrogen Economy Fallacy
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2007, 01:58:14 PM »
mostly since it seems a little insane to pump crazy-explosive hydrogen into my car.

As if gas was safe... ;)
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allanf

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Re: Hydrogen Economy Fallacy
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2007, 03:23:40 PM »
In my defense: at least gasoline isn't a pressurized gas.  It needs to mix with air and an appropriate spark before it blows me to kingdom come. ;D

Offline Borek

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Re: Hydrogen Economy Fallacy
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2007, 03:35:59 PM »
Yep. But it can burn you to the white ash without exploding  :P
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allanf

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Re: Hydrogen Economy Fallacy
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2007, 04:38:16 PM »
I'd still argue that gasoline in a tank is safer in accidents than a pressurized cylinder of hydrogen, or propane for that matter.

Offline constant thinker

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Re: Hydrogen Economy Fallacy
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2007, 09:36:35 PM »
Quote
And when you use it, the waste product will be nothing but water—“environmental pollution will no longer be a concern.” Hydrogen will be abundant, cheap, and clean. Why settle for anything less?

Apparently the author hasn't heard of the impact DHMO on the environment.  ;)

The whole article is very pessimistic toward the hydrogen economy, but it does do a good job at pointing out technical issues.

Why don't we just all use hamster power. I saw a car that used hamster power in a commercial once.  ;)
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allanf

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Re: Hydrogen Economy Fallacy
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2007, 09:46:11 PM »
DHMO is also a greenhouse gas!

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