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Topic: What are the "Base elements" at the start of the universe?  (Read 26068 times)

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Offline CosmosGP

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What are the "Base elements" at the start of the universe?
« on: February 17, 2008, 08:10:54 PM »
What are the least number of elements needed that you can make all the other elements from? & What are they?
   Can all the elements be made by (fission. fusion, any means) using just Hydrogen and oxygen ?   or maybe
Hydrogen, oxygen and Lithium?

Offline Arkcon

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Re: What are the "Base elements" at the start of the universe?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2008, 08:41:05 PM »
Hard to really say about the start of the universe, what was present, how it interacted, etc.

Medium sized stars like our sun can use fusion to turn hydrogen into helium, helium into lithium, etc, on all the way up past carbon, and oxygen into iron and silicon.  At that point, no more energy can be acquired by fusion, and the star just cools.  In the process of shifting from one fusion fuel to another, a star may expand, and the outer expanding shell may explode, fusing elements into others, without the net gain of energy. 

Likewise, or solar system is fairly rich in heavier elements because it was reformed from the dust and gas of an ancient supernova, which formed even more heavy elements.

One can only assume, {and I've put enough layers of conjecture on already, so one more can't hurt,) that the early universe, when stars were just forming, and hadn't blown off their outer shells, or formed supernovas, and reformed into stars, was pretty dull and monotonous, if all you're interested in is rocky planets.

But yeah, if you've got enough time and space, hydrogen is all you really need.  Question is, what do you make the hydrogen out of?
Hey, I'm not judging.  I just like to shoot straight.  I'm a man of science.

Offline CosmosGP

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Re: What are the "Base elements" at the start of the universe?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2008, 08:49:41 PM »
Thanks for the comment!  I understand about the stars and astronomy but I
am asking from a strictly "chemistry" pesrpective, what would you need as the ingredients?  Just Hydrogen only or Oxygen and lithium?

Offline Yggdrasil

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Re: What are the "Base elements" at the start of the universe?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2008, 09:53:35 PM »
By simple chemical reactions you cannot change one element into another element.  Chemical reactions affect only the electronic structure of atoms (i.e. moving around electrons), not their nuclear structure (i.e. moving around protons and neutrons).  You need nuclear processes (e.g. what happens in stars and particle accelerators) in order to create new elements.

Offline CosmosGP

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Re: What are the "Base elements" at the start of the universe?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2008, 10:12:59 PM »
It's OK to use fusion, fission or particle acceleration  or any means that we know of. I am still looking for the minimum "base Ingredients"!

Assuming you could apply controlled fission or fusion to your ingredients, what ingredients (elements) would be needed to make all the other elements in the periodic table. (including the temporary unstable ones)?

Could it be done (even theoretically) with just hydrogen or by adding Oxygen and Lithium?


Offline Yggdrasil

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Re: What are the "Base elements" at the start of the universe?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2008, 12:10:26 AM »
I would think it would be possible with only hydrogen (and its isotopes).  Why do you think oxygen and lithium would be necessary?

Offline Borek

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Re: What are the "Base elements" at the start of the universe?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2008, 03:49:04 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang_nucleosynthesis

Protons (Hydrogen) and neutrons are all you need.

Then, there is the famous B2FH (Burbidge, E.M., Burbidge, G.R., Fowler, W.A. and Hoyle, F., Synthesis of the Elements in Stars, Revs. Mod. Physics 29:547–650, 1957) paper describing what happened next. No idea whether it can be found on the net.
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Offline sjb

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Re: What are the "Base elements" at the start of the universe?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2008, 07:54:46 AM »
Then, there is the famous B2FH (Burbidge, E.M., Burbidge, G.R., Fowler, W.A. and Hoyle, F., Synthesis of the Elements in Stars, Revs. Mod. Physics 29:547–650, 1957) paper describing what happened next. No idea whether it can be found on the net.

http://dx.doi.org/10.1103/RevModPhys.29.547 is a start, then if you have sufficient access rights Robert is your parent's brother, as the saying almost goes.

S

Offline azmanam

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Re: What are the "Base elements" at the start of the universe?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2008, 08:38:21 AM »
Knowing why you got a question wrong is better than knowing that you got a question right.

Offline CosmosGP

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Re: What are the "Base elements" at the start of the universe?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2008, 11:10:16 AM »
Please Humor me and help with this solution. (I need your input).

I am trying to find out if the chemistry written in Genesis could be true (theoretically).
I have studied the Hebrew words in Genesis and what it really says is this:

  Our universe started with Hydrogen & Oxygen gas, and most likely some Lithium mixed in with it (the Hebrew wording allows for Lithium salt). Then this was compacted into liquid Hydrogen and liquid Oxygen.

  This was a sphere (mass) of matter at least 2 light years in diameter.
 
 The pressure at the center was enormous. (not comprehensible by us).

  Sonoluminescence (sonic sound waves) set this "fuel" into an explosion that we cannot comprehend (because of the pressures and amount of mass that were applicable).  Fusion, fission and God knows what else took place and created all the elements and energy (full electromagnetic spectrum, photons, light, etc...)that we know of in our universe.
  The waste product or "ashes" of this fusion reaction (explosion) was a sphere of sea water (our oceans). What remained was our earth with salty ocean water
(from the Lithium). I Think the presence of tritium & deuterium in sea water might confirm this.

The addition of lithium would allow much more helium to be produced also. This would explain the abundance of Helium in our universe.

The chemistry seems to work, What do you think?  Am I wrong! Could it theoretically work like this?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 12:37:50 PM by CosmosGP »

Offline azmanam

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Re: What are the "Base elements" at the start of the universe?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2008, 02:40:55 PM »
It would be interesting to see that original Hebrew and your translations, as the word 'hydrogen' was not coined until the late 1700s.  And oxygen was only named 'oxygen' after the early chemists waded their way through phlogiston theory. 

I'm no nuclear chemist, so I'll leave the atomic changes to them.  As to the sea water part, I'd be a bit skeptical, as lithium doesn't break the top 10 most common elements in sea water.  (sodium's the closest - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_water)

Again, I'm no nuclear chemists, but it appears the splitting of a lithium atom (3 protons, 4 neutrons, 3 electrons) to give a hydrogen Edit: helium atom (2 protons, 2 neutrons, 2 electrons) would also yield a net tritium atom (1 proton, 2 neutrons, 1 electron).  Without the requisite nuclear physics classes, I would expect a much higher abundance of tritium, given that helium is the 2nd most abundant element in the known universe. 

There can be no direct measurements of what existed before such an explosion, but an explosion of the magnitude you are describing would seem to suggest any available atoms would be obliterated and would only reform in the resulting aftermath of said explosion.  Thus it would almost appear that the elements in existence prior to such a universal birth of your description would be inconsequential.

Take a look at the links I provided earlier.  I think you'll find the second one particularly amusing - even if it provides no scientific insight into this discussion.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 09:04:36 AM by azmanam »
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Offline azmanam

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Re: What are the "Base elements" at the start of the universe?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2008, 09:06:56 AM »
After looking at the tritium page for your other post, it appears tritium has a relatively short (12 years) half life and decays into helium-3.  That could account for high abundance of helium and low abundance of tritium.  again - assuming my nuclear chemistry is correct, which is a long-shot.
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Offline CosmosGP

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Re: What are the "Base elements" at the start of the universe?
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2008, 07:49:45 PM »
I read your link "The last Question", I was not expecting that ending!
You were right I enjoyed it! I'll read the rest when I can.

I did not have enough "rights" to read the other guys link but I wanted to.
by the way...I think I might be my own grandpa!   LOL!
   

   Yes! that was MY translation of the hebrew, the writer did not have that knowledge back then. It was very obvious what he was trying to explain. There are many more details I left out (to be brief) but you get the picture. Genesis also goes on to tell about stars, galaxies and even black holes that hold the galaxies together (I found that part very interesting). I have never heard my conclusions talked about or in print but not many astronomers (amateur) study genesis. There are many "miracles of knowledge" in genesis that the writer had no  idea of what he was writing about, yet it is accurate and cutting edge science of today! (very interesting)
   I'm starting to sound like a preacher.
Back to the science!

   I was aware of the half life of tritium and it turning to helium. Also, I was betting on the sodium in sea water but I don't know how similar it is "chemically" with Lithium.
   I know astronomers have touble accounting for our abundance of helium and the extra protons created from the (something we are talking about) are suppose to help create the extra helium. I think this is correct. Please explain this if you can.
  I read once that Hoyle had accounted for all the elements accept for Lithium in his "steady state model" of the universe back in 1956 or a long time ago. (I would like to see that article! ) So I am just assuming that the lithium might be a base element, it may not be necessary. With my very limited chemistry knowledge I think that the tritium is made from the lithium and if it is joined with the deuterium isotope from hydrogen this has a very good theoretical chance for hydrogen fusion. ( I probably murdered that!)  Don't laugh if I did!  Ha! Ha! I might have just made a banana creme pie!
    My basic question is: Would this explosion make sea water? with the salt.
         A Hydrogen and oxygen "Burn" with Lithium injected or mixed in with it (the Hebrew wording suggests stitching together or fule injection  or mixing at exact rates for maximum reaction) Just like a rocket engine does.
We need a good chemist to answer this question. Please help if you can comment on this!   



 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 09:43:06 AM by CosmosGP »

Offline CosmosGP

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Re: What are the "Base elements" at the start of the universe?
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2008, 09:44:17 AM »
Can anyone help with this question?

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