July 02, 2020, 12:15:04 PM
Forum Rules: Read This Before Posting


Topic: pH of NaBr solution  (Read 24569 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ahmed_saleh

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
pH of NaBr solution
« on: June 08, 2008, 07:15:55 AM »
can any one advise please:

What is the expected range of pH of the Sodium Bromide (44.7 % wt. aqueous solution with a density of 12.4 lb/gal = 1486 kg/m3)? Is it expected that the pH changes during storing of this product?
My question is based on the fact that we produce a NaBr batch with pH ~ 7, but after some time of storage it gets down to about 6.5, even when raising the pH again by using an NaOH solution to 7 or a litte higher it gets down again to 6.5 after storing! Thanks for assistance...

Online DrCMS

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1255
  • Mole Snacks: +206/-81
  • Gender: Male
Re: pH of NaBr solution
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2008, 08:53:00 AM »
Is it stored in a sealed container or open to the atmosphere?

Offline Borek

  • Mr. pH
  • Administrator
  • Deity Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25823
  • Mole Snacks: +1690/-401
  • Gender: Male
  • I am known to be occasionally wrong.
    • Chembuddy
Re: pH of NaBr solution
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2008, 09:05:19 AM »
How do you measure pH of this syrup?
ChemBuddy chemical calculators - stoichiometry, pH, concentration, buffer preparation, titrations.info, pH-meter.info

Offline ahmed_saleh

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: pH of NaBr solution
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2008, 01:03:50 AM »
DrCMS,
It is stored in an atmospheric tank (opened to atmosphere through the goose neck vent only). Do you think about absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere, which may affect/lower the pH value? If so, what is the best approach to kill this issue? Thanks for your assistance.

Borek,
pH is measured in the lab using an instrumental pH-meters. The pH of the solution can be measured by two approaches: directly or after 1:10 dilution. If the issue is related to absorption of atmospheric CO2, what would be the magnitude of such effect for the both approaches of measurement.Thanks for your assistance.

Offline ahmed_saleh

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: pH of NaBr solution
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2008, 02:05:42 AM »
Borek,
I have found a topic & was about: " Is NaCl a base?". You & AWK have responed to this topic, where I found the answers interesting. based on this information, I have the following questions:

1-Would NaBr behave in the same way as NaCl :[ pH of NaCl solutions will be slightly below 7, but this is caused by "ionic strength effect" (influence of ionic strength on activity of H+ ion) ] ?
2-What is the effect of the solution's concentration on this phenomena?
3-What is the expected relation/trend between the Halide (as F,Cl,Br & I) of Na & the magnitude of this effect?
Please advise & thanks for your assistance.

Offline Borek

  • Mr. pH
  • Administrator
  • Deity Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25823
  • Mole Snacks: +1690/-401
  • Gender: Male
  • I am known to be occasionally wrong.
    • Chembuddy
Re: pH of NaBr solution
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2008, 04:03:17 AM »
Would NaBr behave in the same way as NaCl :[ pH of NaCl solutions will be slightly below 7, but this is caused by "ionic strength effect" (influence of ionic strength on activity of H+ ion) ] ?

Yes, I would expect exactly the same problems here. Note - they will be not time dependent, ie pH will not change in time. If the pH changes it is most likely due to some additional effect, like CO2 contamination.

Quote
What is the effect of the solution's concentration on this phenomena?

Good question. Most often used theory (Debye-Huckel theory) works OK for solutions of ionic strength up to 0.1, with some extensions they can be used up to ionic strength 0.5 (in the case of Me+X- salt ionic strength is identical with its molar concentration). Your solution is far more concentrated. Most likely activity coefficients are much higher than 1 then.

Quote
What is the expected relation/trend between the Halide (as F,Cl,Br & I) of Na & the magnitude of this effect?

As a first approximation, ionic strength is what counts, type of halide is of secondary importance. F- is a weak base, so it will hydrolize.

I would definitely stick to pH measurements in the diluted solution.
ChemBuddy chemical calculators - stoichiometry, pH, concentration, buffer preparation, titrations.info, pH-meter.info

Online DrCMS

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1255
  • Mole Snacks: +206/-81
  • Gender: Male
Re: pH of NaBr solution
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2008, 04:42:19 AM »
Yes I think you are absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere during storage.
You could try to prevent this but before you try that the question i have is does it matter for the end use?

Offline ahmed_saleh

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: pH of NaBr solution
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2008, 06:21:09 AM »
Borek,
Thanks for your answers. I would highly appreciate any additional scientific clarification for the above described issue.

DrCMS,
Thanks for your answer. Regarding the importance of the pH value: We don't use this product in our plant, but we are trying to keep stick to the required value of pH as stated in the specification sheet, which is =7, to avoid any customer complaints in future.

Borek / DrCMS,

I have additional question:

If the reduction in pH value can be related to the absorption of CO2: What is the expected minimum value of pH that this solution can reach? Why?

I'm asking this question because we noticed that the pH didn't go lower than 6.4~6.5 !!

I would highly appreciate any additional scientific clarification for the above described issue. Thanks a lot for your efforts.



Offline AWK

  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7372
  • Mole Snacks: +516/-86
  • Gender: Male
Re: pH of NaBr solution
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2008, 10:35:29 AM »
You probably adjusted pH to 7 with a small amount of NaOH. When you absorb some CO2 then a byffer of NaHCO3/H2CO3 can be formed
with pH close to 6.4

printing error correction
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 04:17:18 AM by AWK »
AWK

Online DrCMS

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1255
  • Mole Snacks: +206/-81
  • Gender: Male
Re: pH of NaBr solution
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2008, 10:51:05 AM »
Regarding the importance of the pH value: We don't use this product in our plant, but we are trying to keep stick to the required value of pH as stated in the specification sheet, which is =7, to avoid any customer complaints in future.

I'm sure the specification must have a range for pH ie 7+/-1 or a minimum or maximum.  No pH specification should ever be set with a single figure as experimental errors/varriations will always lead to a range of reported values for the same material.

Offline ahmed_saleh

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: pH of NaBr solution
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2008, 01:52:11 AM »
DrCMS,
You are right. I mentioned you the lower end of the range, which is 7. The range of pH in the specification sheet is 7 to 8.5 .

AWK,
As I mentioned above, each time we found the pH lower than 7 we adjust it to 7 by adding NaOH. It is very interesting to hear about the possibility of forming a buffer solution, & I have the following comments/questions regarding that:

1-Can the buffer form in the storage tank due to CO2 absorption even without adding the NaOH solution? Or there must be some excess NaOH in the NaBr solution to initiate the buffer forming?
[I'm afraid this excess NaOH could be  received during the NaBr batch endpointing. As I stated above,we produce the NaBr solution with pH ~ 7, but after some time of storage it gets down to about 6.5 (without adding the NaOH solution) & as a result we adjust it to 7 by adding NaOH].

2-Regarding the quantities: What quantities of formed buffer (for example, in % of total volume/or/ mass NaBr solution) that would create such effect of keeping the pH around ~ 6.4 ? [ I beleive that the storage size of NaBr solution may play role in estimating the needed time to have a decline in the pH value to about 6.5 after each adjustment to 7].

3- If installing CO2 filters at the tank openings to atmosphere would that help avoiding this phenomena by stopping the forming of this buffer?

Thanks for your assistance.

Offline Borek

  • Mr. pH
  • Administrator
  • Deity Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25823
  • Mole Snacks: +1690/-401
  • Gender: Male
  • I am known to be occasionally wrong.
    • Chembuddy
Re: pH of NaBr solution
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2008, 03:15:10 AM »
By the very definition of buffer solution answers to your questions are:

1-Can the buffer form in the storage tank due to CO2 absorption even without adding the NaOH solution?

No.

Quote
Or there must be some excess NaOH in the NaBr solution to initiate the buffer forming?

Yes.

Quote
Regarding the quantities: What quantities of formed buffer (for example, in % of total volume/or/ mass NaBr solution) that would create such effect of keeping the pH around ~ 6.4 ?

Concentration of buffer present is irrelevant. See http://www.chembuddy.com/?left=pH-calculation&right=pH-buffers-henderson-hasselbalch

Quote
If installing CO2 filters at the tank openings to atmosphere would that help avoiding this phenomena by stopping the forming of this buffer?

That's what we all expect.

What are your storage tanks made off?
ChemBuddy chemical calculators - stoichiometry, pH, concentration, buffer preparation, titrations.info, pH-meter.info

Offline ahmed_saleh

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: pH of NaBr solution
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2008, 03:54:46 AM »
Borek,

Thanks for your answers.
 The Material Of Construction of our tanks is either Stainless Steel or epoxy painted Stainless Steel.

Online DrCMS

  • Chemist
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1255
  • Mole Snacks: +206/-81
  • Gender: Male
Re: pH of NaBr solution
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2008, 04:35:05 AM »
I can think of a few different answers to the problem.

1) Can you change the spec to 6-8 for example.

2) Pack the product off to sealed containers. If you ship in bulk to the oil industry this one is out unless you make to order.

3) Add a different buffer, bicarbonate/carbonic acid buffers blood to pH~7.4 so maybe add sodium bicarbonate to the solution.

4) Prevent the CO2 from entering the storage tank.

Offline ahmed_saleh

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18
  • Mole Snacks: +0/-0
Re: pH of NaBr solution
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2008, 04:57:39 AM »
DrCMS ,
Thanks for your answers.
 I'm also thinking about implementing Option (4).
Regarding the other ones: I must discuss these options with our team, but in general we try to avoid any actions that may seriously affect the product specifications or working plans.

Sponsored Links