January 25, 2021, 01:57:48 PM
Forum Rules: Read This Before Posting

### Topic: Analysis of improving automobile fuel economy via water electrolysis  (Read 15182 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

#### b34st1y

• Regular Member
• Posts: 17
• Mole Snacks: +0/-0
##### Re: Analysis of improving automobile fuel economy via water electrolysis
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2008, 04:06:14 PM »
just one more thought - couldn't you theoretically attach auxiliary car batteries (store in the trunk perhaps) to obtain the necessary amps/watts to power the system? A bigger alternator -maybe....but possible even?

How would you recharge the batteries?  That's the role of the alternator, and ultimately the role of gasoline combustion.  A bigger alternator wouldn't be the solution either; argument same as above.

I disagree. Sometimes you need to spend money to make money. Take a supercharger for example. It's driven directly off of the engine via a belt, yet when its all said and done...it produces MASSIVE amounts of energy for the engine, thus having a positive effect on energy output.

I think the same principle (in theory) could be applied here. the extra drag created by a bigger alternator would have to be compensated by the amount of energy released via the hydrogen combustion....but it's feasible.

I think the main thing is to find that perfect balance - you can get to 100 by many different products... 100x1 50x2 25x4 etc etc etc.....but which yields the greatest area? ...if you catch my drift..  heh

#### b34st1y

• Regular Member
• Posts: 17
• Mole Snacks: +0/-0
##### Re: Analysis of improving automobile fuel economy via water electrolysis
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2008, 04:20:26 PM »
If we work on a 1% molar ratio (rather than mass), the number is somewhat smaller (assuming octane as the fuel) at about 14 amps.

can you please explain the differences in your figures, as you say molar ratio versus mass? If you calculated it either way, it should compute to the same figures...given that we're looking at 1% of the gasoline taken in

#### buffordboy23

• Regular Member
• Posts: 10
• Mole Snacks: +3/-0
##### Re: Analysis of improving automobile fuel economy via water electrolysis
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2008, 04:32:38 PM »
b34st1y,

In your original post, you said that perhaps auxiliary car batteries or a more powerful alternator would be a solution.  These are the ideas that I responded to, not the idea of adding a supercharger because it was never mentioned until now.  I have researched the idea of reclaiming some "wasted" energy solely from the alternator, but this scenario is impossible; as engine output increases, the internal rotor of the alternator spins faster within the field coil, and as a result, it must overcome a greater value of electromagnetic "friction."

In regards to adding a turbocharger to the vehicle, I can't offer a decisive refuting argument because I don't know much about its overall efficiencies.  I am sure that the fact that it can be powered mechanically makes it an attractive idea for some as a possible solution.  However, I wonder if the larger mass of air coupled with the added products of electrolysis will cause the engine to be more susceptible to "knocking."

#### Borek

• Mr. pH
• Deity Member
• Posts: 26252
• Mole Snacks: +1706/-402
• Gender:
• I am known to be occasionally wrong.
##### Re: Analysis of improving automobile fuel economy via water electrolysis
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2008, 04:52:47 PM »
Take a supercharger for example. It's driven directly off of the engine via a belt, yet when its all said and done...it produces MASSIVE amounts of energy for the engine, thus having a positive effect on energy output.

It doesn't produce a single joule of energy. It just allows you to prepare more fuel/air mix to be used per engine cycle, so that you can get more energy - but you get more energy using more fuel, not the same amount of fuel.
ChemBuddy chemical calculators - stoichiometry, pH, concentration, buffer preparation, titrations.info, pH-meter.info

#### b34st1y

• Regular Member
• Posts: 17
• Mole Snacks: +0/-0
##### Re: Analysis of improving automobile fuel economy via water electrolysis
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2008, 07:04:13 PM »
its the principle of the matter....trading one form of energy for a more effective form of energy.

#### Borek

• Mr. pH
• Deity Member
• Posts: 26252
• Mole Snacks: +1706/-402
• Gender:
• I am known to be occasionally wrong.
##### Re: Analysis of improving automobile fuel economy via water electrolysis
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2008, 07:30:29 PM »
No, it is the same energy, just being created faster.
ChemBuddy chemical calculators - stoichiometry, pH, concentration, buffer preparation, titrations.info, pH-meter.info

#### b34st1y

• Regular Member
• Posts: 17
• Mole Snacks: +0/-0
##### Re: Analysis of improving automobile fuel economy via water electrolysis
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2008, 08:49:33 AM »
ok, so apply that to our situation: we need to create hydrogen (and oxygen) fast enough to compensate enough for at least 1% of the fuel.

#### buffordboy23

• Regular Member
• Posts: 10
• Mole Snacks: +3/-0
##### Re: Analysis of improving automobile fuel economy via water electrolysis
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2008, 09:38:18 AM »
Here is the graph.  I have removed the link from my previous post.

#### buffordboy23

• Regular Member
• Posts: 10
• Mole Snacks: +3/-0
##### Re: Analysis of improving automobile fuel economy via water electrolysis
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2008, 12:40:21 AM »
I intend for this to be my last post.

From the graph presented, it is evident that the idea can work for methane but under limited conditions, and ultimately, the results are not desirable overall.

It's difficult to transform this graph into one that focuses on iso-octane, or standard grade gasoline.  We would have to assume that since the attached electrolysis device requires so much energy, that this new graph would have to show much larger jumps than shown here for methane with a little concentration of hydrogen and oxygen.  I can't speculate if this outcome would be true.

If it were true, I would expect that the vehicle must be run very lean (more air relative to stoichiometric ratio).  Depending on the leanness of the fuel/air mixture, power loss may occur.  So if this device did work, it could only work for such engine conditions, and benefits would only be seen if the driver consistently drove within such engine conditions.

An alternative way to look at the problem is to question if we can use a substance different than water in the electrolysis device to cut back the energy demand to produce hydrogen on board the vehicle.  It appears that we can, but the idea is potentially dangerous and also the design of the electrolysis device has durability issues and decomposition issues with the electrocatalysts.  Liquid ammonia consumes 95% less energy than water during electrolysis; ammonia requires 1.55 W-h/g relative to water 33 W-h/g to produce 1 gram of H2.  If the hurdles associated with the quick electrocatalyst decomposition can be overcome, it makes good sense that we may see this electrolysis technology in the future.

#### b34st1y

• Regular Member
• Posts: 17
• Mole Snacks: +0/-0
##### Re: Analysis of improving automobile fuel economy via water electrolysis
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2008, 01:20:34 AM »
has anyone considered the resonance approach to this matter?  -  Using a defined frequency of current to create a resonance within the water molecule, it's a proven method that uses substantially less energy

#### Borek

• Mr. pH
• Deity Member
• Posts: 26252
• Mole Snacks: +1706/-402
• Gender:
• I am known to be occasionally wrong.
##### Re: Analysis of improving automobile fuel economy via water electrolysis
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2008, 03:49:48 AM »
has anyone considered the resonance approach to this matter?  -  Using a defined frequency of current to create a resonance within the water molecule, it's a proven method that uses substantially less energy

Reference to peer revieved journal please. It'll be against laws of thermodynamics. And these laws are not like speed limit that you either obey or not, they are like a concrete wall - you either stop before hitting, or you break your neck, but you want pass through.
ChemBuddy chemical calculators - stoichiometry, pH, concentration, buffer preparation, titrations.info, pH-meter.info

#### b34st1y

• Regular Member
• Posts: 17
• Mole Snacks: +0/-0
##### Re: Analysis of improving automobile fuel economy via water electrolysis
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2008, 04:11:52 PM »
yes, creating energy would be impossible....but rather try to find a way to transfer energy from a nearby source. Consider the atomic bomb...and the mechanics of the chain reaction.