[fenris]

Hi all,

I have a question and was wondering if anybody could help me out on what is happening. I have attached a picture of a ceramic vinegar container that is experiencing unusual crystal growth on the outside of the container. I am assuming it is crystal growth as it isn't organic. The growths started this summer around June. Cleaning the outside of the container removes the crystals quite well. The growth returns within a day or so. There are no breaks or cracks within the container and it only contains white vinegar purchased from a grocery store.

In the photo the jar hasn't been touched for a couple of weeks.

I am stumped. Any insight would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Troy

[Borek]

It looks as if the growth appeared in places where something is leaking from the container through cracks in the coating. If there are no cracks - I have no idea.

[fenris]

Borek,
Thanks for the reply. There are no cracks but it does look that way .

I thought there might have been cracks that were not apparent to a visual inspection so I put water in the container and no leaks. If the outside of the container is cleaned off the growth returns but in a different pattern. I thought it might have something to do with potential vapor off the vinegar itself. through the top of the container.

The reason I think it is crystal growth is I have seem similar formations in caves (http://www.earlham.edu/~brizeja/Graphics/baconsmall.jpg http://www.earlham.edu/~brizeja/caveformations.htm). But they involve dripping water that has dissolved minerals in it.

[Borek]

What material is it? Some kind of ceramics? If there are cracks in the glazing they can be not detectable by air leaks, although visual inspection should give at least some hints that they exist.

Different patterns may suggest that growth starts on some surface features, like traces of minerals from dried water or something.

Try to "shave" the growth, and add few drops of strong acid (some kind of acidic bath/water boiler cleaner may do). Do you smell vinegar? If so, it must be some acetate.

[fenris]

What material is it? Some kind of ceramics? If there are cracks in the glazing they can be not detectable by air leaks, although visual inspection should give at least some hints that they exist.

I believe it is a ceramic product.

Different patterns may suggest that growth starts on some surface features, like traces of minerals from dried water or something.

That could be. I know our water here is hard. I will clean it off thoroughly and dry it using an air drier. I'll put the vinegar and see if the growths start again. I have a companion oil (olive oil) container purchased at the same time that doesn't exhibit this behavior. In addition if the container is empty it doesn't form the growth. Only with the vinegar does it seem to grow.

Try to "shave" the growth, and add few drops of strong acid (some kind of acidic bath/water boiler cleaner may do). Do you smell vinegar? If so, it must be some acetate.

The crystals come off (intact) quite easily. They can be blown off with a gentle breeze. I have a little glass bowl that I have collected the crystals in. However I am at a loss as to where I can get a strong acid. I have checked around the house and the products are basic (lye, drain cleaner, bleach etc.) Any tips on common household products that would qualify? I am not a chemist, in fact it was my worst subject in university  .

I appreciate your time with this issue. I have spent the last couple of months off and on trying to figure out what is going on (more out of curiosity then anything). I haven't made any head way with the problem. I emailed the manufacturer with photos about this but I haven't heard anything.

The really weird thing is that I have had container set (both the vinegar and oil) for a few years and the crystals just started this summer. Strange!

Cheers,
Troy

[fenris]

OK, I did manage to find a strong acid. I used a product called CLR it contains lactic acid according to the label and is designed as a calcium remover.

When i put a few drops in with the crystals I did smell vinegar.

[Borek]

So most likely that's an acetate. You may try to put the container in some other place to see if the crystals still appear - that'll tell you whether it is something from the air, or something from the container wall.

[fenris]

So most likely that's an acetate. You may try to put the container in some other place to see if the crystals still appear - that'll tell you whether it is something from the air, or something from the container wall.

Excellent suggestion! I'll get it cleaned up and put it some where else and watch to see what happened. As an aside I was thinking that there might be an issue with the air.

I'll post back in a couple of days on the results.

Out of curiosity do you have any theories on what might be happening?

Cheers,
Troy

[Borek]

Out of curiosity do you have any theories on what might be happening?

No. Only thing I thought off was that acids diffuses through cracks in glazing and washes out some cations from the ceramic wall. But if there are no cracks, that's not it.

[enahs]

I want your vinegar container!!!

Has it always done that?


You can take the crystals you collected, and try and make a "hand warmer". I.E. Make a super saturated solution, start the nucleation process and see if it generates heat.

[fenris]

I want your vinegar container!!!

Has it always done that?


You can take the crystals you collected, and try and make a "hand warmer". I.E. Make a super saturated solution, start the nucleation process and see if it generates heat.

It has done that since the summer... I am not sure why? I noticed it one day on the kitchen table with white lines on the side of it. It started to snowball from there.


An update. I cleaned it off entirely (immersed it in very hot water with some bleach and scrubbed it well). I stuck it in a different corner of the house with nothing in it this time. The crystal formation is starting again. So I don't think the vinegar is to blame for the reaction. Unless the vinegar was absorbed into the inside of the container (it doesn't smell like vinegar). 

[Borek]

Could be walls are saturated with vinegar. It may take days before it will get out completely. Putting the container in warm place may speed the process up, still, it can be weeks. But you may observe that this white thing growths slower with time.

[Two00proof]

Unusual!

My initial thought was that you had placed the container next to a bottle of ammonia and the growth you were seeing was ammonium acetate.  This is something that happens frequently when chemists place an acid next to an ammonium hydroxide bottle.

But you moved the bottle, I'm assuming that you moved it to a location without ammonia and therefore I'm stumped.

[Arkcon]

I has heard of something like this, way back in the days of kid's kitchen chemistry.  You took charcoal briquettes, and put them in a tray with vinegar, some other household chemicals that I've mostly forgotten, one of which was bluing, which nobody uses anymore.  The chemicals would wick up through the porous briquette, and evaporate, and a crystalline inflorescence would form, and since it was likewise porous, and feed by capillary action, the crystals would expand, and grow larger.

I don't know what the crystals seen growing here are.  But their appearance may have as much to do with the physical structure of the bottle as their chemical composition.  At least you have some more places to look for an answer.

[fenris]

Unusual!

My initial thought was that you had placed the container next to a bottle of ammonia and the growth you were seeing was ammonium acetate.  This is something that happens frequently when chemists place an acid next to an ammonium hydroxide bottle.

But you moved the bottle, I'm assuming that you moved it to a location without ammonia and therefore I'm stumped.

That was my initial thought, some thing it was near that might be causing this so I moved it around and still the crystal growths occurred. When this first started happening it was on the kitchen table (no dangerous chemicals as far as I know, just some mean chili  )


As an update, I have moved the container far from its original location. It is now empty of vinegar. The crystal growth has continued at a much slower pace. I'll give it another week and try things again.

Cheers,
Troy