[idiot]

hi. sorry for invading this forum with my stupid questions. I'm not a chemist or a graduate, but this seemed like the place to find someone who could answer my questions. I've always had a keen interest in science and am not completely ignorant, so hopefully we can talk the same language... i only have a couple of questions, so shouldn't take much of your time.

 1.  oxygen ions.   
 
 i was wondering about the possible effects of using positively ionized oxygen (ionized as much as possible) instead of normal neutral atmospheric O2 in an internal combustion engine. I have been led to believe that lone O atoms and ions are more energetic than neutral O2, and as such they will attack any fuel molecules in the combustion chamber more aggressively in their quest to re-stabilize.
  A) what effect if any might the use of highly charged air have on the burning process? would more energy  (provided by the ionization energy of the ions) be released from the engine? would it be possible to effect engine power and efficiency by simply filling a section of the air intake with a highly charged conductive mesh intended to strip electrons from the air as it enters?   

 B) if highly positively ionized oxygen was mixed with water which had also been positively charged,  would the O ions be aggressive and energetic enough to disrupt the water in their quest for electrons? would hydrogen be released from the water as its bonding electrons were picked up by the O+++ ?  or would hydrogen atoms simply be stolen by the O+++ forming new water molecules to replace the ones that were shredded?  or would nothing much happen at all??

 2.  magnetic water ??  ( this question is why i put this thread here in the chemical physics section...sorry if I'm in the wrong place.)

 I'm sure you'll all think I'm brain damaged but i was also wondering if water, polarized within an electric field, might exhibit some magnetic properties...  with the molecules having a slight electric dipole, could the 2 positively charged H atoms be thought of as an electric current of sorts, "orbiting" the O atom?  if so, could these positive "electric currents" be effected by any magnetic fields that were pulsed through the spin axis of the water molecule?  could the water molecules be made to spin around the electric field lines which are polarizing the water ( the H atoms in effect "orbiting" the E field lines), if a pulsing magnetic field was also pumped across the water, with the M field lines being parallel to the E field lines?

  again, i apologise for my ignorance and lack of education...  if any of you clever folks out there have the time to provide any answers to my inane babble, i would appreciate any responses and knowledge you might have to share...
 
 

[idiot]

hello? anyone out there?  is nobody answering my question because it's just too retarded? I would have thought that the effects of ionized Oxygen were fairly well understood by "proper" chemists... i really would appreciate an answer to my question if anybody has one...  ignore the question about the effect of magnetic fields on water molecules as that one's probably best aimed at physicists anyway. and i guess that most chemists aren't really into engines so my asking about the effects of O+++ on engine efficiency was probably a waste of time...  but really, can no-one tell me what effect would result from the use of O+++ instead of O2 in a combustion situation? or what the effect of O+++ mixed with positively charged H2O would be?   

[Borek]

hello? anyone out there?  is nobody answering my question because it's just too retarded?

I guess so. To properly address the question one will have to copy half of the general chemistry book. The best advice is that before trying to proceed further you try to learn at least Chem101.

Note: at least first two are not bad questions, there can be some interesting discussion behind. But terms you are using suggest you lack knowledge and terminology required for such discussion. This can be corrected with some effort

[idiot]

 i did study chemistry at school, but only to O level, as it was always my least favourite science... I've been studying some chemistry textbooks recently, so am working on it, but hoped someone might have some knowledge on that they could share...

[Borek]

Concentrate on Hess law for now. Think what are your initial and final states.

[idiot]

cheers for the tip, will look into it... although i may not have asked my questions using the correct terminology I'm fairly sure i would be able to decipher any discussion on the subject (with the help of google of course...) so please feel free to try and explain your understanding of the situation if you have the time...

[Phlogiston]

I'm not sure why you chose O³⁺ as an ion of oxygen, but, assuming you're thinking about an improved combustion engine, you also have to take into account how much energy is required to make O³⁺ (or whatever ion), not to mention the fact that more than one of them would repel each other (as they are like charged), and would probably react with many things besides fuel (such as the engine itself). 

[idiot]

 the 3+ was just a random number, to show a high level of ionization. any amount would do i guess... obviously energy would be needed to ionize the air, but i was wondering about the possibility of using solar or some other source to charge a second battery, in order to turn a regular car into some odd kinda electric hybrid, using the solar (or whatever source) to reduce fuel consumption...
 if the O ions repel each other wouldn't that be a good thing,  meaning that the O+ fills the combustion chamber completely and uniformly as it spreads out as much as possible?
 one would hope that the engine parts are protected by a layer of oil, but i had wondered if the metal would provide electrons to the ions, returning them to their neutral state... and if the O+ would react with the metal or oil in a detrimental way... too many questions, not enough answers.... always the way...

[Phlogiston]

the 3+ was just a random number, to show a high level of ionization. any amount would do i guess... obviously energy would be needed to ionize the air, but i was wondering about the possibility of using solar or some other source to charge a second battery, in order to turn a regular car into some odd kinda electric hybrid, using the solar (or whatever source) to reduce fuel consumption...
 if the O ions repel each other wouldn't that be a good thing,  meaning that the O+ fills the combustion chamber completely and uniformly as it spreads out as much as possible?
 one would hope that the engine parts are protected by a layer of oil, but i had wondered if the metal would provide electrons to the ions, returning them to their neutral state... and if the O+ would react with the metal or oil in a detrimental way... too many questions, not enough answers.... always the way...

You would never get positively charged ions to move very far without reacting with something.  As for the repulsion, you also want them to be dense so that you have many reactions taking place in a given volume. 

I don't see how you would solve the practical problems associated but even if you did, there's no such thing as energy for nothing- such as in your example, why try to make oxygen ions with a solar cell, only to use them in a very inefficient process like combustion?  Why not just use a solar cell to power the car (or whatever) directly?

[idiot]

"there's no such thing as energy for nothing- such as in your example"
    I never suggested such a thing. i merely asked if it might be possible to "add" some solar energy to the output of the engine.

"Why not just use a solar cell to power the car (or whatever) directly?"
    mainly because my car has an internal combustion engine, not an electric motor...

"As for the repulsion, you also want them to be dense so that you have many reactions taking place in a given volume. "
     so you think that the air/fuel mix would burn better if all the oxygen were clumped together in a small portion of the combustion chamber? odd.  I would have thought that in a finite space such as the engine cylinder, the most complete combustion would occur if the whole space were uniformly filled with fuel and oxygen... sure you can try to squeeze more air in to increase the density, but you want that dense gas to spread out and fill the whole chamber, don't you?

[idiot]

Concentrate on Hess law for now. Think what are your initial and final states.

 ok, I've had a look at Hess law... are you trying just to get at the idea that the output energy would be the same regardless of the route taken to the final product?  i have a couple of problems with that, firstly, I don't really know what the end products would be... that's kinda why I'm here asking... especially if the O+ were mixed with h2o +...  what would be the product? would there be ozone or hydrogen peroxide? would there be hydrogen? oxygen? water? i really have no idea... also, would any nitrogen and other gases in the air become ionized and take an active part in the reaction?
  my other problem is that O2 presumably has a lower energy than O++, so the full reaction would have a different starting point, and so presumably a different total enthalpy?.. please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't really know what I'm talking about, as you can probably tell...

[idiot]

once again i just wanted to say HELLO? ANYBODY OUT THERE?  is there really no-one onthis forum who can answer my questions? please help...

[ahernbrians]

This is my first time posting a reply. Diatomic oxygen molecules have two valence electrons in antibonding orbitals. If you succeeded in doubly ionizing them to form O2++ the net bonding would be far stronger and it would be difficult to initiate any chemical reactions.

Adding an electron to O2, on the other hand populates an additional antibonding orbital. This makes O2- much more reactive (10,000,000 times) than neutral O2.

It was a worthy question.