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Topic: Aquarium Copper Question  (Read 7193 times)

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Offline chevy350

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Aquarium Copper Question
« on: May 14, 2011, 02:31:03 PM »
Hello everyone, Sorry if posted In wrong section   
            I have a problem and have no idea where to go for the correct answer so i thought you guys would know best. I have a glass reef tank aquarium that is a new set up for me to replace my 20 year old acrylic one. When we set it up and was waiting for it to "cycle" I noticed something was wrong. I found cooper in the tank!!!! It killed my coral and contaminated everthing(rock,sand, etc...) so i threw all of it away and drained tank (big waste of money on rock and sand) but want to use tank again. Oh yea, the copper came from a BRASS fitting my partner used on one of the pumps in the water. So i was doing allot of reading and many are saying to scrub tank and all equipment with Hydrochloric acid.They are saying that the copper has created a bond to the glass and if i don't break this bond it will slowly leach back into the aquarium.Many r saying to get rid of the tank and start over cause any amt of copper will affect the health of my tank. I do not want to get rid of this tank it was not cheap and is custom built for me$$$.I have the tank empty now but have not cleaned anything.All of the reading i have been doing on this has been from fish hobbyist and not professionals who understand the chemical make up of this situation. I will have allot of plastic pieces to clean also, pumps filters etc...
Any help will be very very appreciated. I am lost and cant get a straight answer fro anyone. If you have other questions please let me know.
Thank you!

Offline enahs

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Re: Aquarium Copper Question
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2011, 05:58:39 PM »
You can clean it out with a little dilute HCl (~5%); you might even want to add a little hydrogen peroxide (1-3%) to the solution to help.

But, copper metal is not soluble in water and you did not bind it to the glass either. So really, just good hard manual scrubbing and ample rinsing would likely get it all out.

The pump filter will be pretty hard to clean though. It might be best to just get a new one of those if they are not to expensive. Not sure what it is made of?


I personally would just clean everything really well with a lot of hard scrubbing and lots of water to rinse, and then setup the tank without putting the expensive reef and sands in, and let it pump for a few days and see if any accumulate if you are really worried.

Offline chevy350

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Re: Aquarium Copper Question
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2011, 06:08:54 PM »
You can clean it out with a little dilute HCl (~5%); you might even want to add a little hydrogen peroxide (1-3%) to the solution to help.

But, copper metal is not soluble in water and you did not bind it to the glass either. So really, just good hard manual scrubbing and ample rinsing would likely get it all out.

The pump filter will be pretty hard to clean though. It might be best to just get a new one of those if they are not to expensive. Not sure what it is made of?


I personally would just clean everything really well with a lot of hard scrubbing and lots of water to rinse, and then setup the tank without putting the expensive reef and sands in, and let it pump for a few days and see if any accumulate if you are really worried.

Thank you! The pumps and such are plastic so i may soak the a little and hope it works.
I was re reading my original post and not sure where"[img]http://www.forkosh.dreamhost.com/mimetex.cgi?{." came from. I did not put that there. sorry

Offline Borek

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Re: Aquarium Copper Question
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2011, 06:59:28 PM »
Just scrubbing and washing can be not enough - I guess low pH (that is, using HCl solution) can help dissolve copper hydroxides, carbonates, basic carbonates, oxides and whatever compounds adsorbed on the glass.

Don't worry about the mimetex link. Most likely you entered double dollar sign (or something similar) and it was automatically replaced. It is not a bug, it is a feature allowing LaTeX use on the site.
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Offline chevy350

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Re: Aquarium Copper Question
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2011, 09:57:42 PM »
Thank you guys for your input ! Looks like I have some scrubbing to do!

Offline nick_clueless

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Re: Aquarium Copper Question
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2011, 04:17:33 AM »
Another popular method for removing small amounts of copper from an aquarium is to have (activated) carbon in your filter medium...

I've read one study whereby the carbon could be regenerated / stripped of the copper by later use of acetic acid or even white vinegar (weak acetic acid.)
I wish I had a link handy.

One note is that the study didn't mention saltwater with copper.


Not saying you can't go have fun with the other methods given so far...

But I know for my fish tank I hate having to actually remove all the water.
Let alone the sand, or the plants.

The (activated) carbon is a pretty common medium to obtain at fish stores, and even major chain stores.


You may want to try using distilled water, rather than water from the pipes if that is where your copper is coming from...

Ignore that, as I misread your original post.    Your copper came from a brass fitting, and you were 100% certain that it was not in the water you used.


That 'enahs'  is right, imho, don't add the live coral, non feeder fish, or most plants until the tank is established.
 :D
>>
I personally would just clean everything really well with a lot of hard scrubbing and lots of water to rinse, and then setup the tank without putting the expensive reef and sands in, and let it pump for a few days and see if any accumulate if you are really worried.
<<


For freshwater tanks I would probably wait at least a week, just to make sure that all the exciting microrganisms are ready as well.
I haven't done anything with saltwater tanks, and brackish water fish only in bowls.


Nick

Offline ajkoer

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Re: Aquarium Copper Question
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2011, 02:03:43 PM »
An inexpensive and effective solution is found in the techniques used in the processing of copper ore.

Copper oxide dissolves in the ammonia in the presence of a small amount of acid or ammonium carbonate. So, add household ammonia, NH4OH, to CO2 in water (or seltzer water) to make a dilute ammonium carbonate solution. Apply liberally with precaution (avoid ammonia fumes by working outside and use eye protection as ammonia splash in the eye can cause significant eye injury).

As the copper oxide dissolves or copper complex form, the solution turns blue. Note, it was ammonia produced from living organisms in the tank and air with CO2 that slowly dissolved the brass in the 1st place. So this is just more of the same in an attempt to dissolve and dilute the presence of the toxic copper metal. I would only introduce one fish to test the tank.

Now as far as reacting with HCl, the problem I have with that approach is the possible formation in oxygen rich water of Copper (II) oxygen chloride, formula 3 Cu(OH)2.CuCl2, which is a fungicide and a dispersive agent. So rinse the tank very well as this may not be good for your fish in even very small doses (you may, unbelievably, make your fish tank more toxic by creating a known fungicide?!).
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 02:20:20 PM by ajkoer »

Offline ajkoer

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Re: Aquarium Copper Question
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2011, 04:36:47 PM »
Hi:

Another idea is to try and replace the Copper out of the compounds in which it has reacted. Possible metals include sheets or strips of magnesium and/or iron. I would avoid compounds of metals with known toxic issues like aluminum (and possibly zinc) with marine life.

Procedure: Fill tank with boiling water, some CO2 in water and insert sheets/strips. Replace water after it cools with hot water. Process should take days, but the metal sheets should show some signs of copper plating if succeeding. Carefully remove all metal sheets when done.

The primary advantage of this approach is that it is safe to perform inside your home and progress, in turns of copper plating, is apparent.

Offline chevy350

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Re: Aquarium Copper Question
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2011, 07:23:58 PM »
Thank you guys!! I knew I came to the right place. You have ideas than most fish hobbyists could not imagine.Including me. :)

Offline chevy350

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Re: Aquarium Copper Question
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2011, 01:04:20 AM »
       well i went and scrubbed the whole tank with hydrochloric acid and rinsed well then did baking soda and rinsed well cleaned all pumps with vinegar soak and baking soda with all new hoses and have the tank set up and running with only the saltwater and so far no copper detected. I will give it a month with nothing in it to make sure. I guess the test we have for aquarium use does not test low enough to be sure no copper in there but at least my test says 0. I also have a filter pad that changes color depending on what is being filterd out and it should be blue for copper and it is white!! I may try to take some water to a chemist or someone who can test for lower levels. Also another test is to put a snail in the tank and if it lives then the water is good to go .They are very sensitive to copper and will die fast.
Thank You everyone!!!!

Offline ajkoer

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Re: Aquarium Copper Question
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2011, 04:28:58 PM »
I would test the tank by filling with warm water and adding some clear household ammonia and seltzer water.

Let stand for a day.

Any copper in the tank will give the water a blue tint (the higher the concentration, the darker the blue). Use a white piece of paper on the back of the tank for contrast.

The good news, is that the solution dissolves copper and repeating the process should produce a better result.

Note: Ammonia is highly water soluble and adding vinegar should effectively remove it.

ANOTHER WAY TO WASH THE TANK
I noticed that Iron (III) sulfate is used commercially to preferentially extract Cu in hydrometallurgical processes.              Source: "Concise Encyclopedia Chemistry" by DeGruyter

Good luck.

Offline Borek

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Re: Aquarium Copper Question
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2011, 06:33:29 PM »
Any copper in the tank will give the water a blue tint (the higher the concentration, the darker the blue). Use a white piece of paper on the back of the tank for contrast.

No. You need relatively large concentrations of copper for it to be visible, while very low concentrations are enough for toxic effects.

Quote
ANOTHER WAY TO WASH THE TANK
I noticed that Iron (III) sulfate is used commercially to preferentially extract Cu in hydrometallurgical processes.

METALLIC copper, not already oxidized copper.

Please don't comment when you have no idea what you are talking about.
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