November 28, 2021, 04:16:54 PM
Forum Rules: Read This Before Posting


Topic: NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane  (Read 12773 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nate

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 34
  • Mole Snacks: +2/-1
  • I'm a mole!
NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane
« on: October 27, 2005, 11:48:28 PM »
Can anyone explain to me why 13C NMR imaging only "sees" 6 carbons when viewing 2,3-Dimethylpentane and not 7.  I know that the two Me groups aren't viewed as the same and the first and fifth C cannot be viewed as the same.  I see no plane of symmetry unless I am just looking at it incorrectly.  Thanks for any help.

Offline mike

  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1246
  • Mole Snacks: +121/-35
  • Gender: Male
Re:NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2005, 11:58:27 PM »
Are you looking at a particular spectrum of 2,3-dimethylpentane? Maybe yours has the methyl groups overlapped?
There is no science without fancy, and no art without facts.

Offline nate

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 34
  • Mole Snacks: +2/-1
  • I'm a mole!
Re:NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2005, 12:15:47 AM »
In this example, it is simply the stick depiction of the molecule.

Offline Mitch

  • General Chemist
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5297
  • Mole Snacks: +376/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • "I bring you peace." -Mr. Burns
    • Chemistry Blog
Re:NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2005, 12:16:54 AM »
here is why
Most Common Suggestions I Make on the Forums.
1. Start by writing a balanced chemical equation.
2. Don't confuse thermodynamic stability with chemical reactivity.
3. Forum Supports LaTex

Offline nate

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 34
  • Mole Snacks: +2/-1
  • I'm a mole!
Re:NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2005, 12:27:03 AM »
Thanks, that helps.  Where did you get that info from?  Our textbooks didn't go that indepth to it and what you showed me would have helped make sense out of a somewhat confusing subject.  And if you have any tips on figuring it out when you don't have that type of information would be helpful also.

Offline Mitch

  • General Chemist
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5297
  • Mole Snacks: +376/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • "I bring you peace." -Mr. Burns
    • Chemistry Blog
Re:NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2005, 12:30:54 AM »
I have a program called chemdraw that can make a prediction on what the peaks should look like. I would worry more about learning the material solid, afterwards you can cheat like the rest of us do. ;)
Most Common Suggestions I Make on the Forums.
1. Start by writing a balanced chemical equation.
2. Don't confuse thermodynamic stability with chemical reactivity.
3. Forum Supports LaTex

Offline nate

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 34
  • Mole Snacks: +2/-1
  • I'm a mole!
Re:NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2005, 12:41:46 AM »
Thanks.  I am working on it.  Seems like everytime I think I have it down, I get tripped up on something like this.  Thanks again.

Offline mike

  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1246
  • Mole Snacks: +121/-35
  • Gender: Male
Re:NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2005, 01:14:18 AM »
Here is one where the methyl groups are separated..
There is no science without fancy, and no art without facts.

Offline sdekivit

  • Chemist
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 403
  • Mole Snacks: +32/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • B.Sc Biomedical Sciences, Utrecht University
Re:NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2005, 05:13:31 AM »
2,3-dimethylpentaan has two equivalen CH3-groups, namely the first CH3 is chemically equivalent to that on the 2nd carbon.

--> the peak intensity of this CH3-group wopuld be twice as that of the other carbonpeaks.

Offline Organishe

  • Chemist
  • Regular Member
  • *
  • Posts: 29
  • Mole Snacks: +3/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a mole!
Re:NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2005, 09:04:02 AM »
Mike (or anyone else that can answer), is the reason the two carbons labeled 3 show up as two peaks because they are diastereotopic due to the stereocenter at carbon 6?  If not, then why, since they should be magnetically equivalent (excluding stereoisomerism).

thanks

Offline Winga

  • Chemist
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 510
  • Mole Snacks: +39/-10
Re:NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2005, 10:38:55 AM »
Mike (or anyone else that can answer), is the reason the two carbons labeled 3 show up as two peaks because they are diastereotopic due to the stereocenter at carbon 6?  If not, then why, since they should be magnetically equivalent (excluding stereoisomerism).

thanks
The two carbon3s experience different chemical environments due to the adjacent stereocenter as you mentioned (try to rotate the *C-C bond).
As these two carbon3s are chemically non-equivalent, so they are also magnetically non-equivalent.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 10:41:39 AM by Winga »

Offline Winga

  • Chemist
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 510
  • Mole Snacks: +39/-10
Re:NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2005, 11:10:46 AM »
2,3-dimethylpentaan has two equivalen CH3-groups, namely the first CH3 is chemically equivalent to that on the 2nd carbon.

--> the peak intensity of this CH3-group wopuld be twice as that of the other carbonpeaks.
The peak intensity does not proportion to the ratio of no. of carbons from each set in 13C NMR spectrum. It is because the relaxation time of 13C is much longer than proton's and non-equivalent 13Cs will have different relaxation time. (and more reasons...)

For time saving, practically, we will not wait for all 13Cs to relax before next excitation. Therefore, the peak intensity does not relate to their ratio.

The intensity for 13C NMR spectrum is related to the no. of adjacent protons (for 13C NMR) attached to 13Cs due to Nuclear Overhauser Effect (NOE).
More the adjacent protons, higher the intensity. (for 13C NMR)

The peak intensity of 13C spectrum predicted by ChemDraw is not reliable, but chemical shift.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 11:18:49 AM by Winga »

Offline sdekivit

  • Chemist
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 403
  • Mole Snacks: +32/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • B.Sc Biomedical Sciences, Utrecht University
Re:NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2005, 12:55:16 PM »
then you have other NMR-basics then me. Because two CH3-groups of the same chemical environment are present, these show as one peak, but with higher intensity.

It's the same with H-NMR, but here there is a direct relation between amount of H's and peak intensity. With C-NMR this is indeed less --> but peak intensity for these CH3-groups is higher.

it's just the same with the following compound:

H3C - CH2 - CO - O - CH2 - CH(CH3)2
« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 12:59:56 PM by sdekivit »

Offline Winga

  • Chemist
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 510
  • Mole Snacks: +39/-10
Re:NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2005, 02:57:06 PM »
then you have other NMR-basics then me. Because two CH3-groups of the same chemical environment are present, these show as one peak, but with higher intensity.

It's the same with H-NMR, but here there is a direct relation between amount of H's and peak intensity. With C-NMR this is indeed less --> but peak intensity for these CH3-groups is higher.

it's just the same with the following compound:

H3C - CH2 - CO - O - CH2 - CH(CH3)2

The chemical environment of two methyl groups (H or C) should not be the same as there is no plane of symmetry in this molecule.

Why there is one peak?
Obviously, their chemical shifts are too close to each other that give you one peak.

It is true that the peak intensity increases as the no. of equivalent carbons increases, but not proportion to the others.

e.g. if the molecule has 4 equivalent quaternary cabons, and only one primary carbon (-CH3), the ratio of peak intensity is not 4:1, maybe the peak intensity of 1o C is much higher than that of quaternary cabons due to NOE (effect).

The compound that you mentioned, the intensity of these two carbons is the highest as they are primary and have the highest number. However, you cannot find the ratio of different sets of carbons.

e.g. The ratio of these 2 carbons and the carbonyl carbon that you find out from the peak intensity is not 2:1, the carbonyl carbon (quanternary) has a very very small instensity.

For proton NMR, as the relaxation time of protons is very very short compare to 13C, all the protons are being relaxed after each excitation. (no need to wait)

For 13C NMR, assume there is 80% of one set of carbons relaxed after an excitation and before next excitation, the other sets of carbons will not have the same amount to be relaxed, e.g. 60%, 70%, 90%. Moreover, there will be less and less 13Cs (each set) are being excited, 80% -> 64% -> 51.2% (not true in real cases ^^).
« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 03:03:54 PM by Winga »

Offline movies

  • Organic Minion
  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1973
  • Mole Snacks: +222/-20
  • Gender: Male
  • Better living through chemistry!
Re:NMR imaging of 2,3-Dimethylpentane
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2005, 05:08:18 PM »
You should also account for the low natural abundance of 13C relative to that of 1H.  If you have a sample containing a high level of 13C then you can integrate the spectrum and get reasonable numbers, but that is because the NOEs that Winga mentioned are responsible for a smaller percentage of the observed carbon signal.

Also, with respect to the spectrum that Mitch posted, the ChemDraw NMR prediction program can't predict splitting of diastereotopic signals, that's why the two "3" carbons look the same.  In reality, these would have slightly different signals as shown in the spectrum that Mike posted.

Sponsored Links