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Topic: Polyurethane for making strong plastic  (Read 13696 times)

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shinai

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Polyurethane for making strong plastic
« on: October 01, 2005, 11:34:28 AM »
Hello,

I know that in USA you can buy ready-to-use polyurethane casting resin, which works on room temperature, but I am afraid I cannot buy it here where I am. So I did some research and found that I can make it by mixing polyols and isocyanates, and by adding other aditives to change its atributes. Since my chemistry level knowledge is not very high I need help to do this right.

I need to make plastic on room temperature which would be as strong as it can be, it needs to be hard, not gummy, but yet flexibile, so it will not crush when hit. If I make a plastic box with its walls 5mm (1/5 inch) thick, and smash it with a hammer as hard as one can, it has to be unbroken. Or if you throw it from the roof of a small building, that it also stays in one piece. It can suffer scratches and smaller deformities ofcourse. I hope that I explained what type of plastic I need.

From what I've found till now I thought about using MDI (diphelymethane 4,4 - diisocyanate) and polyester to get pre polymer but I don't know anything about catalysts and other aditives, and I am also not sure about first two elements either, so I need your help   ;D.

I will buy those chemicals at some local chemistry companies and there is possibility that they don't have all the chemicals you suggest, if rare especially, so some substitutions are highly recommended.

Thanks for your help  :)

Oldtimer

  • Guest
Re:Polyurethane for making strong plastic
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2005, 02:48:53 PM »
A friend of mine once made fishing rod holders with Polyurathane paint in Gallons. The plastic is hard and durable when mixed with the standard hardeners and poured into molds. But you have to buy large quantity to enjoy price benefits. And I'm not certain it's suitable for foodstuffs either, too vaporous.

With Isocyanates the Nitrile compounds are still related to strength possibly in your applications. The function of hardener is crosslinking still of course{as you know}. Dupont has been known to really trash their patent property rights to formulations in the interest of selling raw products. At least for the manufacture of common need enclosures. They have a site online requiring no license to look around in.


And I have seen a few Chemical Suppliers offering goods on eBay for almost any type of plastics manufacture. They are in the Industrial section. Amazing isn't it? Ebay is pretty interesting.

Does that help any? If you need more, just ask? I don't know the requirements for this plastic beyond strength, which is affected by hardener concentration.

Andy
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 07:04:57 PM by Oldtimer »

shinai

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Re:Polyurethane for making strong plastic
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2005, 08:10:26 PM »
Thanks for this pieces of information, I will buy some paint tomorrow and try it. Any ideas for some aditives I could use to make all that better? I don't need it for food  :)

Yeah, I saw that eBay has many of these products, indeed it's interesting  ;)

Some more infos, except strenght: it must not lose its qualities for at least a year, but up to infinity, it is for all outdoor conditions, and this one is important, it needs to have minimized friction when put against other objects, especially with steel, but yet to preserve its hardnes and flexibility. So to mention that it should be great if it can stand high summer temperatures without losing its quality.

Oldtimer

  • Guest
Re:Polyurethane for making strong plastic
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2005, 12:38:16 AM »
It might work just fine, especially if you aren't going into some large scale production.


http://plastics.dupont.com/NASApp/myplastics/Mediator?id=0

The standard plastic paint types are Acrylo-nitrile, Catalyzed Acrylic Enamel, NitroCellular, Lacquer - catalyzed or not, and of course Poly Urethane {Imron etc.}

There are also some clear Poly's at hardware stores as sealants, they look the same but don't need catalysts to harden. Probably cheaper, but they're colorless. Ask the manufactuer for the appropriate catalyst as it will be like rubber without it.

They will have a wide selection of Poly's at any auto paint shop along with additives. Retarders and reducers {same effects in this use} might raise elasticity but take substantially longer to harden. They would be vital with Lacquers though as the resin of Lacquers are brittle. Use a fiberglass catalyst in this case. {Use any thinners sparingly, we generally aren't spraying the plastic we're pouring it.}

Hardeners with Urethanes can make it stronger setting and helps when you pull the part from the molds sometimes.

Unless this is a one-off pull, you will need to make a prototype piece. Use a wood or other easliy cut mockup. Dip it in a plaster filled paper {or something you don't care about ruining} container . Then fill the interior up too and allow it to dry. This is a messy job so think it though a little so you don't make a big mess.

When the plaster has sat a day or two to harden, cut it in half cleanly and straight down the longest line across the mold as possible. Pull your mockup out and away carefully, then separate the other half of the mold from the mockup half. Do the same with the other half of plaster.

Take those four pieces and reassemble the two interior pieces. If you used plaster it's like spackling a wall crack and the joints reattach easily with some new plaster. Worry about the other two after completing the rest of the preparation.

If we're talking huge pieces here, chafmer the two big outside pieces along the 'internal' edge. Look the both of them over for any tiny defects and fill them with more plaster.

Then spray it down with multiple {3-4} coats of catalyzed {preferably Black} Lacquer black paint and when it's dry, wet sand it smooth. This is called 'tooling' Wax it a few coats with a hard pasty wax formulation by hand. Perhaps a little ingenuity will be necessary to make your two piece mold work easily, but the importance of blow release holes drilled into the center of the pieces is sometimes an important add-on. You will also need a fill hole to pour the liquid into from the bottom of the piece so it should be within the crack somewhere, possibly in more than one place. A rat tail file makes these half-holes nicely. They should be painted and sanded as well. Remeber that if you knick the inside of this mold somehow while handling them, you can use a paper cupfull of More Black paint to fill these tiny holes and scratches, then sand and wax them smooth.

I'm sure you can visualize the best arrangement for using {and casting/making} your mold. But you'll need a water-based prep paint for a light dusting before proceeding shortly to pouring your liquid plastic. It should be watery and barely "dust" your mold halves faces to function right.

Air pressure can push the cured Urethane {etc.} pieces out but can also break a soft newly-made piece. So try without them unless it's really big.

That's probably more help than you asked for. But others may be interested too someday. You can swap an expanding foam for the plaster in one or more steps if you want. The treatment and prep is the same. Clamps of some type will be needed to hold the stuff together while you fill it with plastic. A rope wrapped around it or wood clamps may work. Putty is somethimes used to seal the crack of the bottom mold halves, work it smooth with water before spraying the water-based {Release agent} paint. That children's putty in the cardboard can works fine.

The coloring agents themselves add integrity to the plastic, they're copolymers themselves. And of course you can add fiber or fabric if the need dictates it for your desired product.

The people at Dupont Chemical, Dow Chemical, and any other Plastic or Paint Industrial supply manufacturer really are into these kinds of ideas and can be a really great source of information. They'll offer free phone call assistance with your project. So whether it's one-time special purpose job or a possible pre-production idea you should probably inform them of that point. They can help you make time-saving decisions and really have a love of their job.

Check the linkup above on this post for some ideas you may not have thought of for additives.

Ask away.
Andy :2guns:
« Last Edit: October 04, 2005, 10:59:18 AM by Oldtimer »

Oldtimer

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Re:Polyurethane for making strong plastic
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2005, 04:11:17 PM »
My intent is to cause more discomfort than you will experience if you use caution to the degree and level of safety needed to work with this stuff. Especially for first time Plastics Experimentalists,

************** Additional Word of Caution *****************

Folks, these compounds release a much more dangerous level and amount of Toxic FUMES than any University Organic Chemistry Lab will create. Treat those caution labels on the cans as Gospel from Peter himself. The words don't imply intoxication, they are talking about Severe Nervous Systems damage and debilitating effects as well as loss of conciousness.

You will need a carbon filter mask and good rubber gloves. Follow those directions as well.

The sensation of your eyes burning will be apparent, whether you have goggles on or not. But wearing them is a good idea too, splashes can't be washed out really simply. Ask about that in advance with the 1-800 number on the can. Advising them that you are only inquiring for future use won't send an Ambulance your way before you can mention it.

The sensations of tingling nerves and an accompanied feeling of unnatural "Nervousness" will indicate that you have not worn your mask, or have a leak around your nose area or something. This is not good.

Don't make plans to travel for at least 12 hours after your pour, if you have suffered a toxic level of inhalation you might pass out. Falling asleep isn't the same thing {that may be normal since this project has had you worried for days}. A catatonic state will come over you and you may have a siezure if you have suffered an extreme exposure.

Don't try to make this stuff in your home {unless you have a mansion with huge amounts of space}. Instead do it outside, in a garage with the big door open and at least one window open, or in a shed  with a good strong breeze blowing through.

Having somebody else close while you do the plastics bit is a good idea. Depending on her {or his} interest level - they may require safety equipment of the same level of quality as yours' at least.

I become nervous when I use more than 1 quart of this and I've done it for years. So don't try to build a plastic autobody for your car from Acrylic Enamel Paint in your bathroom for instance.


I would feel horrible if anybody was injured from my advise.

With that said, enjoy your project and be creative.

Andy  
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 11:09:53 PM by Oldtimer »

shinai

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Re:Polyurethane for making strong plastic
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2005, 08:22:42 PM »
Wow!  ;D This is the most excellent answer. Thank you really much  :D. I tried to buy some polyurethane liquid with a hardner but the old guy didn't want to sell it to me, he was saying it would never harden enough, funny. I bought something else in the end, some polyesther resin with catalysator, hope it'll work. So basicly, besides all that caution, I should use any of the mentioned paints and put some hardner inside, in right ratio, and I will get the results. Nice  :)

Oldtimer

  • Guest
Re:Polyurethane for making strong plastic
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2005, 11:21:13 PM »
.


"So basicly, besides all that caution, I should use any of the mentioned paints and put some hardner inside, in right ratio, and I will get the results." Right -except for the tooling paint you should use the recommended catalyst. Unless you find a combination that works a little better.

The heat will be tremendous, you will be surprised.

Yeah, he didn't want you to be disappointed with the results probably. He didn't think to tell you the plaster would be tougher to work than the plasic either I bet. Oh well, he'll be interested in the job development too and means well. Nothing to fault there.

Polyester resin is for fiberglass work, it really is a sticky stuff like tree sap kinda. My concern would be that without a cloth or fiberous fill additive it will be brittle but very stiff.

There's a balence between flex and hardness that takes a knack to figure out. I learned about this by leaving catalyzed paints and resins in the mixing cups after a job. They'll get really hot very quickly with just a little catalyst. I started using a small plastic graduated cylinder so every job would harden at the same pace.

I noticed that the paint was as strong as the fiberglass resin, and things just developed from there. But it's easy to try little portions in paper cups {Not foam or plastic cups} until you find the right flex stength and mixture. Just peal the paper cup from the hardened plastic and play around with it to see how strong it is. Most plastic trash cans and other big plastic pieces have a shredded fiber in them to increase the dent resistence properties, and prevent them from breaking.

Fiberglass resin - $15-30.00/Gal.
Home PolyUrethane Varnish - $30.00/gal.
Autobody PolyUrethane - $160.00/gal.

Color is gonna cost anyhow. Maybe he's right.
Andy

Some links to check out:

American Plastics Council
http://www.americanplasticscouncil.org/s_apc/index.asp

Advantages of PolyUrethane - Scroll down to the bottom end and check the comparison charts.
http://www.sdplastics.com/polyuret.html

List of Several Plastics and their properties;
http://www.indianplasticportal.com/plastic-datasheet.html
http://www.matweb.com/index.asp?ckck=1

Society of Plastics Engineers
http://www.4spe.org/

Plastics Additives and strengtheners
http://www.specialchem4polymers.com/resources/search/index.aspx
http://www.knovel.com/knovel2/Toc.jsp?SpaceID=10063&BookID=335

Chemical Behavior of certain common Plastics:
http://www.unesco.org/webworld/ramp/html/r8818e/r8818e03.htm

Add more links if you can find something interesting. I've heard of people adding ground nut shells, asbestos, cotton, silk, all kinds of things to help the plastic look better or just make it strong..
« Last Edit: October 04, 2005, 11:14:41 AM by Oldtimer »

Oldtimer

  • Guest
Any luck yet ?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2005, 11:31:55 AM »
Just wondering how things are going. I was thinking about the old days doing the fiberglass layups. Seems like we used almost 1/2 cup of hardener{catalyst} for every gallon of resin.

All that stuff needs to 'kick' in less than 20 minutes. Otherwise you end up with a sticky gooey mess. The heat is required to reach endpoint for proper crosslinking, thus it evolves a lot of gases when it's working right.

For the paints you need to add almost a full {1} cup for every gallon, else the oils will come up to the top and make a messy looking glop on top of the part.

That's way more than the maker recommends, but oh well.

Andy

Hbond

  • Guest
Re:Polyurethane for making strong plastic
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2005, 09:30:49 PM »
If you go to any of the large paint manufacturers you can get two part gallon polyurethane kits for about $75. These have a range of properties and are mostly used for coating equipment and floors. The catalyst or hardener is best added with a drill mixer to assure good and uniform mixing. One also needs a dwell time to allow it to begin setting up. This keeps it from flowing down the side of the part.

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